as 14 Nov 2008:
Pinnacle Series 9 0%
Pinnacle Series 10 0%
USD SGD
Pinnacle Series 1 1.83% 1.47%
Pinnacle Series 2 3.79% 3.26%
Pinnacle Series 3 10.32% 10.03%
Pinnacle Series 5 8.61% 8.35%
Pinnacle Series 6 2.95% 1.26%
Pinnacle Series 7 1.67% 1.48%
The above notes lost more than 89% of value
USD SGD
Pinnacle Series 8 69.50% 66.28%
Pinnacle Series 12 79.97% 80.28%
Pinnacle Series 15 84.87%
Pinnacle Series 16 82.15%
USD SGD
ReplyDeletePinnacle Series 8 69.50% 66.28%
Pinnacle Series 12 79.97% 80.28%
Pinnacle Series 15 84.87%
Pinnacle Series 16 82.15%
When are these guys going
has someone worked out a rate [of depreciation] yet, surely there must be some linear motion, even if its downhill all the way from here
this is shocking. how can the bond investment of the referenced entities dropped so much for series 6? all the companies are still strong?
ReplyDeleteFor all intent purposes, series 1.2,5,6 and 7 have failed. The value only reflects the accrued interest and the underlying securities have no value now. Example Series 6, 1.26% reflects the interest or should I call now insurance premium payable in Jan 2009 and the underlying securities are zero?
ReplyDeleteso sad to see so many singapore investors have beed mislead or cheated.
ReplyDeleteThis will affect the reputation of the banks and Singapore.
I called Morgan Stanley this morning. The said if we are very lucky to hold the Pinnacle Note to maturity, we still can not take back our principle. It depend on then marktet.
ReplyDeleteDidn't your distributor repeat tell you if you hold to maturity, you can take back your principle?
CHEATING! CHEATING! CHEATING!
Any committee set up to help Pinnacle investors. Plse publish the contact so that we can sign in.
ReplyDeleteWithin 2 to 3 months, all Pinacle series will fail.
I believe the total no. of investors affected could be exceeding 2000.
Chen Rui
Welcome to the "cheated" club.
ReplyDeleteAlthough it may sound insensitive, but given the current financial crisis, more and more product will fail.
More opps..."eyes not opened" investors will join the club.
Infact, a lot of investors still does not know that their investments have problems until they experience credit events.
More worms in the can, more skeletons in the closet will surface.
Now really hope our MPs has invested their golden egg into any 1 of these product, then they will know how investors was swindled. Now all of them dare not do anything as ah kong has already spoken.
All the structured products in all the other series are very shaky now. Even some insurance products are affected. No one can escape from these "designed to cheat" products.
Don't worry Mr Tan, Hong Lim Park will be busier than Orchard Road very soon. Till then, we shall see if MAS still wants to ignore your petiton.
The concern is now the buffer various series still hold to the specified thresold amount in respect of the Underlying Assets. Mandatory redemption event will take place if the aggregate loss calculation arising from the credit events of the reference entities in the reference portfolio of the Underlying Assets exceeds the specified threshold amount.
ReplyDeleteU are again urged to tel 68345010/11/12 morgan stanley hotline to find out more. The buffer of the various series (if I am not wrong):
PS 1 - 0.79%
PS 2 - 1.91%
PS 3 - 3.42%
PS 5 - 2.86%
PS 6 & 7 - 1.99%
CDO list:
PS 1 - 100 REs (Downgraded to 'B-')
PS 2 - 100 REs (AA rated withdrawn)
PS 3 - 121 REs (Downgraded to 'B-')
PS 5 - 125 REs (Downgraded to 'B')
PS 6 & 7 - 125 REs (Downgraded to 'B')
How many REs are allowed to fail to invoke a mandatory redemption event:
Eg. PS 7
Buffer left 1.99%
weightage of each RE = 100/125 = 0.8%
Assume recovery rate of 40% for a failed RE, the loss = 0.8% x 0.6 = 0.48%
If 4 more REs failed but able to recover 40% of the value, the further aggregate loss = 0.48% x 4 = 1.96%
The 5th RE fails then CALL it a day!
Please take note that:
Washington Mutual's recovery rate is 57%, BUT
the three Islandic banks had very very low recovery rate in
Glitnir - 3%
Kaupting - 6.625%
Landsbanki - 1.25%
PS 7 should prepare for the worst that the most two more REs can afford to fail (without recovery or very low recovery rate as in the 3 Islandic banks).
Other series, please work it out for yourselves based on the PS 7 example.
11.12am,
ReplyDeleteso if even not fail when matured in 4 years time, we will get back 2% if the valuation hold? What a wonderful investment that wiped off my children education fund!
Hi all, I recommend to cutloss for Pinnacle Series still have more than 60% value, sell back to the FIs ASAP.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, we do not even know what are inside the basket of 100+. Second, we don't how they calculate the value of each entity. They can tell you any number, you just have to believe. This must be the biggest fraud of our time. Even if you put the money in s'pore stock market at the peak, die die you still get 30% left today. What else can I say but fraud.
ReplyDelete2.31pm,
ReplyDeleteI don't understand your explanation. How about series 5? How many has failed and how many more can it take? Will the value increase again?
I wonder whether the FIs are taking initiative to write or email to the investors to update them on the value of the Notes?
ReplyDeleteIf no action or response by the bank and MAS. The investors can think of quring up together outside the bank and MAS. It's nothing wrong if you do that cos it's just like people go to the bank to bank in money or ask them questions.
ReplyDeleteThe investors need to stand up and voice out loudy by yourself. If you don't voice out loudy, the chances of get back the money is zero.
Always bear in mind to tell the bank that you want to sue them.
Your voices and action is a great pressure for the bank.
8:16 PM
ReplyDeleteTry 68345010/11/12 morgan stanley enquiry line to find out more.
The buffer left to exceeding the specified threshold amount in respect of the Underlying Assets of the various series (if I didn't listen wrongly):
PS 1 - 0.79%
PS 2 - 1.91%
PS 3 - 3.42%
PS 5 - 2.86%
PS 6 & 7 - 1.99%
CDO list:
PS 1 - 100 REs (Downgraded to 'B-')
PS 2 - 100 REs (AA rated withdrawn)
PS 3 - 121 REs (Downgraded to 'B-')
PS 5 - 125 REs (Downgraded to 'B')
PS 6 & 7 - 125 REs (Downgraded to 'B')
Series 5
The loss due to the credit events have occured for each of the following REs in the reference portfolio of the Underlying Assets:
Freddie 0.8% x 0.001 = 0.0008%
Fannie 0.8% x 0.02 = 0.016%
Glitnir 0.8% x 0.97 = 0.776%
Kaupting 0.8% x 0.93375 = 0.747%
Landsbanki 0.8% x 0.9875 = 0.79%
Total loss = 2.3298% Say 2.33%
The specific threshold of amount is derived: 2.33% + 2.86% = 5.19%
(I MAY BE WRONG as I read from the PDF file posted by MS, it spells 6.10% for Class IA & 5.55% for Class IIA)
For u to lose the 2.86% buffer,
it will take:
1) 2.86% / 0.8% = 3.575 ie. more than 3 more REs completed wiped out.
2) The recovery is of paramount importance. It is the industry practice to assume 40% recovery rate. If so:
2.86% / 0.48% = 5.96 ie, more than 5 more REs to fail but all with recovery rate of 40%.
I may be wrong, please check with your RM and they should know much more than me by now.
hi...anybody care to give opinion pinnacle series 15? in alot of consideration whether to pull out or stay on...thanks alot for the advise...
ReplyDeleteanybody know anything about Pinnacle 11?
ReplyDelete"Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteanybody know anything about Pinnacle 11?
5:58 PM"
Dont pin too much your hopes on anything with that magic word
I understand that pinnacle 15, the underlying assets has a floating rate note with an interest pegged to 1-month USD LIBOR - BBA plus margin. The underlying coupon quarterly payout were basically basaed-on the lending rate between bank, and hence depending pretty much on level of bank confidence and central bank rate. it is clear that libor’s movement indirectly proportional to central bank lending rate while speaking of central bank rate, we are in deep recession at the moment (with singapore the first country in asia officially in recession) where we are talking about not 1% growth, not zero growth, but NEGATIVE GDP growth.
ReplyDeleteTherefore bank all over the world, including UK, US, and japan are moving their attention to zero central bank rate which in return will bring LIBOR down along. what worry me so much now when the underlying coupon payment are highly depending on LIBOR, well just put it this way “if libor is at 3.5%, how can MS payout 3.5% to pinnacle series 15 holder???”. remember, the term of early redemption stipulates ” when the notes unable to meet its obligation” such as giving quarterly coupon, the notes is deemed worthless…
please click on below link fyi:
http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/business/10/10/08/singapore-asias-first-economy-recession
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/libor
http://www.moneycafe.com/library/libor.htm
btw, can anyone help me to interpret the effect on downgrading of Morgan stanley “unsecured debt” rating by Moody’s and S&P recently to chance of default for the “floating rate” notes issued by MS?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.rbs.com.sg/Singapore/Important-3/index.htm