Dear Mr Tan,
My son passed GCE "A" level with many As, 1 B, and 2 Es. He was not accepted into a local university. He applied to NUS, NTU, SMU and SUDT and appealed twice, but was rejected.
Local universities are funded by taxpayers and our fourth generation citizen cannot have the opportunity to enter a local university. How do we compete with other nation when, as a global city, our own citizen are deprived the opportunity to go for tertiary education?
When I visited the local universities, we saw many foreign students which took away the opportunity for our own citizens to be admitted. These foreign students are given a scholarship by our Government to take the university place from our own citizens. Many of them did not opt to become Singapore citizens.
If my son were to study in an overseas university, there is the tendency that he would not come back to Singapore. I hold this fear based on the experience of my relatives. If we were to lose a fourth generation citizen, how can Singapore be able to sustain as a nation without a deep root of its own citizens. If a significant crisis or disaster were to hit singapore, who will defend this country? Why can't the local universities accept our own local students?
Alan
My observationAlan has asked me to post this letter to invite the views of other readers. He also asked me to carry out a survey. I will think about how to organise this survey.
I just wonder how many 'A' level subjects did Alan's son take. You only need 3 'A' level subjects to apply for the university. Is Alan saying that his son has three 'A' level subjects with grade A and still unable to secure a place in local universities?
ReplyDeleteAlan you may want to clarify this point first for the readers.
If anyone were to take a walk in the nus or ntu, you would think that you are in a foreign university. I am serious just take a walk one of these days when you are free and you will know what I mean.
I remember at A levels we only took 4 subjects plus AO level English General Paper and Chinese. Can I understand how Alan's son scored 2 Es, 1 B and yet also had "many As"?
ReplyDeleteDear Mr Tan,
ReplyDeleteHonestly, out of the four paragraphs Alan has wrote, only the first is relevant.
Alan hid many truths in the paragraph. He did not mention how many As his son has gotten, and what were the 2 Es for. Is it his intent to cloud our judgment with "many As"? It could have been 7 As or it could be 3 As.
To have his initial applications and appeals rejected but all four local universities, it goes to show Alan's son is simply not as good as his peers who survived the competition and managed to go through the stringent entry requirements.
I hope Singaporeans do not take it as a birthright to get a varsity seat and that meritocracy and equality are values the state stands firmly on.
Dickson
Points to ponder:
ReplyDeleteShould local universities have a minimal entry standard for locals or should it have no entry standards?
Given a foreign student who can meets the minimal standard and a local who cannot meet minimal standards, who should the university admit?
Are the local universities totally funded by tax-payers money or does the foreign student have to pay more?
How many subjects do students today take for A levels? During my time, all it takes is 3 A-level subjects and 2 AO-levels subjects. Should this be reduced as it seemed Alan's son scored many As but still cannot get in.
face it.
ReplyDeletei was sick to my stomach when i was the only sgp in my nus tutorial class.
On the issue of university admittance, I think that universities should admit just the right number of students: Not too many, not too much.
ReplyDeleteIt is "obviously better" for one to get admitted to university. But if too many students were admitted, many will not find meaningful jobs after graduation because the market can only provide employment for a certain number of people.
The overall solution is to prioritize university admittance instead: Make sure that all deserving local students get university places first. Then admit international students to obtain the right numbers.
I see that many top overseas universities have many resources for students to find jobs. The main criteria (or perhaps only criteria) for ranking whether universities provide a good service to its students is to judge how well the market perceives its graduates to be. (i.e., starting salaries, mid career salaries etc) School fees should be judged based on this ranking.
I think Alan did not give details to his son's result. If it's GP (or KI) that gets an E, it is highly unlikely that he will be granted a place in Local University.
ReplyDeleteIt also depends on what course Alan's son chose to study. If it's some course that not many people wants to go (example, language), he stands a better chance of getting an admission.
Basically, I think Alan is whining. His son just need to retake his A-Level as private candidate next year for the subjects he got 'E' and use the combine result to get an admission. At least it's a lot better than Polytechnic graduates who got decent grades (3.0<GPA<3.5) but can't get into any Local University.
I would guess that Alan's son probably got Es for General Paper or Mother Tongue, or both. This would likely preclude him from getting admitted to many of the courses in NUS.
ReplyDeleteAlso, how many is "many As"? I thought the typical number of A-level subjects (excluding AO-level subjects) is not too many, about 3 or 4. Please exclude the S-papers (I think it is called H3 level now?), I think these are not necessary to secure a place in NUS.
Without knowing the details, it is difficult to make an objective assessment of this issue.
Every parent wants the best for their child, and Alan is no exception. Having kids myself, it requires planning with the kids before the national exams. No point crying over spilled milk. Spend time on the next course of action. Plan with the child what to do next. It is not the end of the world. If one door closes, another opens. It may turn out to be a blessing in disguise. Alan's son may turn out to be the next Bill Gate?
ReplyDeleteIf Alan's son got a B and 2E, he must have only max 1A as most students in fact takes only 3 A level and 2 AO level so it is possible that his 3 A level subjects may be 1B and 2E. That being the case, it is not possible to be admitted in the three local universities. I have no problem that the 3 local universiies admit up to 20% of places for foreigners but have a problem when they are offered scholarships.
ReplyDeleteI have prepared my 2 elder sons well, they scored a total of 9A and 1B so both were admitted to the courses they have chosen in double degree and both offered scholarships by the local universities.
I dont think we should fault the universitie for maintaining standard. Otherwise, the degrees they offered will be worthless.
It does not matter where we get our education. Here at home or abroad.
ReplyDeleteLet us face truths: if my parents do not want me, I will leave the house.
If my girlfriend do not want me, I will look for another.
If the university does not want me, i will look elsewhere.
If I need to stay in another foreign land to earn my living, so be it.
Singapore has been and will continue to be a melting pot of good and bad.. it does not have one people but many people.
We have the right to leave and the right to go where we fit in.
If Singapore wants any of us, I am sure we will be hunted down.
It would be good for the universities to maintain a standard and expect the students from China or India or Vietnam to score the same scores in the A levels as our local students before being considered for admission.
ReplyDeleteSingapore students applying for the US have to do the SATs, for Australian, the Australian matric etc...Why not simply ask China/India/Vietnam students to do the GCE A levels if they want to get in to NUS or NTU or SMU. Then it will be a level playing field or meritocracy....
The result is horrible.
ReplyDeleteAsk your child to study harder an try again. Clearly, 2 Es is a very bad result.
I have my doubts on Alan's complaint. My daughter got only 1A, 2B, 1C and NUS, NTU, SMU all offered her a place! She had a hard time considering which to accept.
ReplyDeleteAs much as I hate NUS/NTU for inviting foreigners like no tomorrow, I must say that the kid's grade need to be disclosed.
ReplyDeleteAssuming he takes 4 A-Level and 2 AO-Level subjects that translates to 3A, 1B and 2E.
We need to figure out what the Es are in? If it's in GP and MT as somebody pointed out, it could be sticky. If the Es are in A-lvl subjects, then I would say it's probably going to be a flat rejection.
Mr Tan, please encourage Alan to disclose his son's results if he is willing. We can then judge NUS/NTU properly.
I'm sorry to hear about this Alan. My personal take on this is that 1A, 1B and 2Es isn't really that good actually. The university entry level for courses has been rising rapidly.
ReplyDeleteEven accountancy courses for NTU/NUS/SMU are mostly 3A1B.
For Law, it's straight 4As.
I guess studying overseas is a good if there's financial support because studying here in singapore restricts the development of the mind. It's really about pure mugging and mugging. Doesn't really stimulate the brain much.
My son obtained a diploma from a local Poly. When he applied to the local U under the jt admission exercise. SMU invited him for an interview. He was unable to make it on both occasions because he was overseas doing his NS. Eventually he was told that interview would be conducted over the phone. The interviewer sounded like he was just going through the motion and eventually my son was unable to get a place. I had to fork out a huge sum to enable him to get his degree in Australia. I feel betrayed as I know that there are many foreign students whose education is being paid for by tax payers who ironically have to send their children elsewhere to get their education. The govt should ask themselves, "Is this right?" This is the only country in the world where its own citizens are treated worse than foreigners.
ReplyDeleteAlan said,
ReplyDeleteI am a Chinese educated 60 years old father,so my English is not so good but I try my best.My only son's was rejected by 3 local Universities twice and SUDT once.He appeal to 3 local Universities all has rejected.This young man is still service NS,he is absolutely disappointed by the decision that our own country have deprived the opportunity for him to go for basic degree education in the Country he love and serve.
His results was 8A GCE O level .From JC GCE A level: H1 GP A,H1 Economic A,H1 Chinese Merit(oral)and Chinese Language B,H1 Project Work A,H2 Physics B,H2 Math E,H2 Chemistry E.
He applied for admission to Engineering,IT,BA,Accounting.
As a father I am very concern about our education landscape.
1) Over Exam (results) and under taught.
2) Without basic 1st degree how to prepare our future workforce for the knowledge base economy ? How to be sustainable as 1st world country and world class global city of excellent to compete with other countries and cities ?
3) If I send him to oversea,I am going to lost this only loving son's.As a result both old parent must also be a quitter.Why I am enter into a lost lost situation.
4)I visited 3 local Universities,at the library,canteen,common area the amount of foreign students was too many.As those I am at a 3rd world country with so many type of difference foreign languages.
5)All local Universities was funded by tax payer,and why admit so many foreign student ?
6)The polices have done nothing for our son's but instead favors foreigners and the scholars.Are we the underdog ?
7)He is discourage by the system of admission,it is really heart this young man and their parent.Why our own country can not let our 4th generation citizen pursuit some happiness and let him study at our own local Universities ?
Very disappointed and sad Alan,need others help to solve this problem.
Alan
local universities also need to maintain a minimum standard standard or you might as well change it to a degree mill.
ReplyDeleteGiving you a benefit of a doubt, since entrance to uni is 3 A-level subject, even if you have As in all 3, if you have Es in your languages, no matter whether you are local or foreigner, you also cannot get in.
Taking the exam again as a private candidate is your best option, and since you son is going to serve army, he can use this time to prepare himself better.
Hi people. A few changes have been made to the A levels curriculum since 2007.
ReplyDeleteBasically,for most students, 6 subjects are taken into consideration for admission to LOCAL universites.
H1 GP, H1 Project Work
3H2 Content Based Subjects (Can think of it as A level Subject) (Eg, Maths, Chemistry, Economics etc)
1H1 Content Based Subject
For students who did not take higher MT during O-Levels, they are expected to take up H1 MT. For these students, they will be seating for 7 subjects during their A levels examination. It's not mandatory to include MT score in the overall ranking points.
For Alan's case, my guess is that the son might have gotten the 2 Es for his H2 content based subjects. This is 'fatal' as the university ranking points would have been dragged down cosiderably.
I think this is the main reason why his son could not get a place in local uni. As someone who has taken the A levels since the revamp, I must say that it's actually quite impossible to get an E for A levels sunjects.. especially content based subjects.. Alan's kid might not have been working hard enough for the 2 years...
I suspect his son scored 1B and 2 E in the H2 subjects and may be scored 2A in the H1 subjects. H2 is the A level subjects and H1 is the AO subjects. If that is the score, his result is not good enough to be admitted into the 4 local universities.
ReplyDeleteIf his son is still interested, he needs to retake the A level. My advice is if he can afford it, send him overseas or locally, there is still the SIM university that has tied up with overseas universitie like the London Sch of Economics or the many private schools here.
Local universities have places for the top 20% of the cohort so if you are not the top 20%, then you dont get in. It is not meant to offer places for all that passed the A level exam but for those that done well enough to be the top 20%.
30 years ago when I took my A levels, it was rare for people who score straight As in all subjects. Maybe just a handful of them for the whole of Singapore. And of course they were mentioned in the papers. And those who score Es may even be admitted, especially for engineering courses at the U, as the govt then was ramping up the output of engineers for a manufacturing economy.
ReplyDeleteNow people who scored straight As are a dime a dozen even for just a school alone. So you can imagine the numbers at national level!
And now also our manufacturing has been lost to countries like China and Vietnam. And lots of low cost engineers from these countries are also imported here.
You can see how bleak the future is for engineers, who form the largest group of graduates from local universities.
I'm afraid that Alan's son results was one of the worst case scenario: The Es were A-level subjects. It would not be possible to get admission to local uni, and for this case I don't think it's NUS/NTU fault. It basically means that Alan has failed 2/3 of his A-level subjects.
ReplyDeleteHi Alan,
ReplyDeletewhile I can understand that every parent would like to see that their children are able to obtain at least a basic degree, however it is obvious that your son's 'A' level result is not great. I noted that your son had obtained 8 subjects with A grade for this 'O' level, however 'O' level grades are irrelevant for application to the university.
As for the issue of the large number of foreign students, it has been so for quite a few years now. Are the large number of foreign students in our local universities denying our own children a place, the answer is obvious since the capacity in the universities is limited. For every single foreign student that is admitted you can bet that one Singaporean children will be denied entry to local universities.
Did you vote for the PAP all these years without thinking on the consequences of giving them absolute power to do anything as they wish?
You will have a chance to do the right thing at the next general election which will be called very soon.
It is not mandatory for local universities to consider citizens first.
ReplyDeleteIf the desire to study is great, there are many other options. It does not have to be expensive either.
My son is now running around the jungles in a foreign land feeding the mosquitoes. He is a poly graduate
He is unlikely to enter a local Uni.
What then? cry? cast votes to support opposition? all that and my dear son will still not get in.
Next: ask the question: what do you want to achieve? how will you get there? who can you ask for help? what are the alternatives?
Are there risks? How do I manage the risks?
This is what I help my son to ask.
We do not have all the answers yet.
But I am confident that he would have learnt to ask questions that help him find a way.
Life is a quest. A journey. Live it. breathe it.
There are many ways to achieve your dream Alan... look and you will find it.
The problem with Alan's son is that the 8A in O level do not count. The 3A in H1 does not help as his H2 of 1B and 2E are too low. My advise is to go to SIM if you do not want to send him overseas and try to do a master at NUS later on.
ReplyDeleteI gave the same advice to my son's friend who scored 1A in project, 2 D and 2E in 4 H2 subject and a subpass in GP.
Alan, if you son scored 8A in O level and 1B and 2E in A level H2 subjects, it means that he is intelligent but did not work hard enough in JC.I am sorry but the truth hurts.
ReplyDeleteFrom Alan's son grade, no offence but it seems that he CMI in the pure sciences & mathematics. His econs grade looks good but admittedly it is at AO-level. You should ask your son what is he good at and then work from there. No point following the science & mathematics path if he doesn't have an aptitude for it. If he's good and interested/passionate in econs, he might consider taking up those econs-related private qualifications.
ReplyDeleteAlan, I think both you and your son need to move on. Take the advice of the many people as they are sound. You can not change the system that cater for the top 20% cause if you are not the top 20%, you are out. Sinple as that.
ReplyDeleteI know that both of you are frustrated but frustration is not going to change anything. Once both of you get over the disappointment, it is best that both of yu sit down to map out the future plan.
Remember even the Stanford PHD is driving taxi in Singapore so having a degree is not a guarantee in life. It may be a start and a lift but certainly not a gurantee.
Harness your energy and prepare for the future will be a more positive thing to do.Good luck and all the best.
Alan, 8A at O level get you son into top JC like RJC and HCI but does not guarantee him for a place at the university. In fact samll 1 to 2% of students at the top JC go nowhere ater the A level simply bacause they did not work hard in those two years. I know cause my kids are there and I can see even after PSLE, many slipped in Sec 1 and 2 and are either push out or ask to do O level. Like wise, getting into the top JC also does not guarantee you a place at the uni. It is for those who have suatain power.
ReplyDeleteI told my kids that getting into the uni does not guarantee you will graduate from there or get a fisrt class honours unless you are consistent and put in the required effort. Otherwise, the journey of disappointment will be the same.
20% places for foreigners are ok as we need to make sure that the uni provides an environment for international perspective. Likewise, many of us send our children overseas and we expect the overseas uni accepts our kids who are foreigner to them.
ReplyDeleteAs long as we do not provide them with scholarships, I am ok with the arrangement as our kids do not get scholarship too from the overseas uni. (May be a small % so we should offer likewise)
你好。
ReplyDelete人各有志。
行行出状元。
Founder of Creative Technology:
Not a university graduate
Founder of Microsoft:
Droped his first degree study and venture Microsoft
A real case of a Woodland girl:
ReplyDelete2002 - Local U rejected her admission
2003 to 2006 - study accountancy at simU.
2006 - Before graduate, an international acounting firm offer her a job with S$3000/month !!
It was better than an Engineer who has higher occupation risk.
Alan,
ReplyDeleteI think it is time that you consider to stop handholding your son further. Let him make his own decision on how he wants to lead his life, you can give him pointers here and there but he needs to learn to start making decision on matters affecting his life.
A basic degree is something good to have but not a must to ensure success in life. Let him join the university of life (work life) and swim with the sharks and dolphins out there. He may become stronger and may pursue his degree later after a few years of working experience either oversea or locally. The boss of Creative Technology and Osim are both non-degreee holder.
An university degree is NOT a passport to WEALTH and HAPPINESS. But to learn the skills of the followings; yes:
ReplyDelete1. One must learn how to handle frustration.
2. One must learn how to handle rejection.
3. One must learn to handle financial difficulty.
4. One must learn how to handle complacency.
5. Always give more than you expect to receive.
The above-mentioned five points which are taken out from a popular motivation book 'Unlimited Power' - by Anthony Robbins.
Alan is messing our minds... so how many As and how many subjects taken ?
ReplyDeleteman, i don't even know why i am dignifying a response to him. Perhaps it is out or respect from Mr Tan Kin Lian.
Alan, after receiving so many comments, whay do u have to ay so far?
ReplyDeleteMr. Tan, is the survey ready soon?
1.58pm.
ReplyDeleteAlan's son has 8A for O level. For A level, he has 1B and 2E for 3 H2 subjects and 3A for 3 H1 subjects.
For subsidised Uni application in Singapore, 'O' levels DO NOT COUNT. You can throw the O-level cert into the dustbin.
ReplyDeleteThe big killer is the E grade for Math. Math is like A B C for uni -- even for social sciences like sociology. Many many Uni courses have minimum grade for Math, and it ain't E!
As some posters already commented, previously if got 1 E for A-level subject, maybe can still go into subsidised Uni. But now is not when minister pay only $500K; nowadays even neighbourhood JCs are producing fully As & Bs students. Even 20 yrs ago in 1990, if you got only 1 B and 2 Es for A-level subjects, at most you can only go to Arts faculty. Even in 1990, you can forget about Engineering, Accountancy, BizAd, Comp Sci.
If you really really think that a Uni degree is that important, and you can afford it, just bite the bullet and send your son for overseas study. Get your son to also do part-time work to build character and earn pocket money --- many many ang moh Uni students also work part-time. And there can be plenty jobs within the Uni itself e.g. assistants to professors, library, hostel canteens etc. How does minimum wage of GBP8/hr sound to you? That was what I earned when I was in UK in 2000. Better than many full-time singaporean's pay, even today 10yrs later.
And why do you worry that Singapore will lose a talent? As you are now finding out, Singapore, PAP, the ministries, the civil servants and the Uni's all don't owe anybody a living. If your son is really talented and has knowledge and skillsets in "high-demand" areas, Singapore companies will lure him back with $150K starting salary. I have relatives whose recently-overseas-educated children have this type of welcoming back presents, so I am not just talking cock here.
Confucius said:
ReplyDelete知之为知之，不知为不知，是知也
No degree is not a real problem.
ReplyDeleteLack of fighting spirit is.
Thank goodness there are the insurance co. and property co. that is willing to accept talented underachievers like your son and give them the training and opportunities to be successful in life.
Just because of a unsuccessful examination doesn't mean the end.
After all, a university deg is just a door opener, a means to an end. If there are other worthwhile pursuits, such as a insurance agent or property agent, and can also lead to achieve your dreams, why not consider them?
Give the insurance co. companies a call today. If your son is 21 and above, has 4 O-levels (which he has), and most important desires to be successful and wants to prove to his peers that even without a degree he can be a successful, he will be a right candidate.
If your son is willing to work hard, put in the hours and effort to meet people and be ready to serve his clients, he will be as successful as he wants.
By the way, there is nothing wrong in being a good insurance/property agent. So act now and you will be glad that while others are studying, your son is already making good money.
The unemployment rate for localcastes graduates is quite high so it is proof to you that getting a degree is no longer having an iron rice bowl unless you get political appointments, you also have to constantly compete with cheaper, faster and not necessary better foreign talents.
ReplyDeleteOne option is to join SAF since there will be no foreign competition there.
Alan
ReplyDeleteBluntly, the foreigners' places are unfortunately not the problem. Even if all the foreigners were to be replaced with Singaporeans, I suspect that your son's grades are so poor that he still won't make it.
Even if you send him overseas, this kind of grades will probably get him into a mediocre university or course. Better for him to use the time in the army to retake his A level exams.
Alan, As a father, I can feel your pain but I have to agree with 5.28pm post that you havr to face reality and do not blame the system. The system is catered for about 20 to 25% of the cohort and as long as your son is not in that category, he can not get in. It is not possible for the system to provide 100% to the whole cohort to be at the university as education is a scare resource and a very expensive one to pay for all the highly paid professors.
ReplyDeleteHope you understand and if your son is determined enough, he will find a path thoogh the journey may be longer than others.
Mr Tan,
ReplyDeleteI love all the comments relating to this topic. Almost all who commented showed lots of wisdom and sincerity.
I hope Alan considers all these comments carefully.
I also wish to thank all the readers of this blog who cared to respond with such wonderful words of wisdom. PC
Your son's A-level grades are definitely poor by any standard.
ReplyDeleteIf your son managed to score 8As at O level, then the best course of action would just be to retake the A-level. It would not be too hard for him, as long as he puts in the effort.
That is how most of my friends, including myself made it to the local U. All of us had 6 - 8 As for o-levels back in the 80s.
The JC years were a time where we were introduced to women, alcohol, cigarettes, wild parties, drugs, gambling.
We had lots of fun, did not study and did not care. After the 2 years in JC, we just retook our A-level as a private candidate and enrolled into the U.
Goodness, failed 2/3 of the "A" level subjects and still can complain cannot go to University. It appears Alan does not even know his son did so badly for the exam.
ReplyDeleteIt is not that Alan's son is no good but I am sure there are many students who had better grades than him. Even if you end up in one of the local U, you must make sure you are determined enough to become a 1st Class Honour Degree Holder so it will be easy for you to secure a job of your dream. All those with 'not here, not there' results degree holders are not going to find a job so easily.
ReplyDelete11.47pm, Alan's son did not fail 2/3 of the A level subjects. His son passed the A level subjects but did not do well enough to secure a place at the local universities. Passing A level does not guarantee you a place at the local uni. Doing well enough to be the top 20% does.
ReplyDeleteBut I agreed with you that his father probably does not know that his son did not do well enough and hebce blame the system for it.