Tan Kin Lian's Blog: Compare Singapore and Canada

Wednesday, February 22, 2012

Compare Singapore and Canada

Wing Lee is a Singaporean who has migrated to live in Canada. He make this comparison of tax in these two countries. http://www.tremeritus.com/2012/02/22/shocking-singaporeans-pay-much-higher-taxes-than-canadians/

12 comments:

Snowy Beagle said...: I am surprised that you posted the link without any comments - have you reviewed the article critically?

I've spent some time in Vancouver and learned a few things first hand.

1-5 - COE, car prices, road tax, ERP, petrol cost

First of all, Singaporeans only pay if they own a car - is owning a car in Singapore a necessity? Or a lifestyle aspiration?

Can the government of Singapore do anything to make, on paper, the cost of car ownership and car use in Singapore to be much closer to Canada's?

Of course - eliminate COE, greatly reduce import tariffs, fuel taxes etc., and etc.

Then what's going to be the result? Not hard to imagine, car population will skyrocket.

Car ownership in Vancouver is between 0.5-0.6 per person, which makes it about 300,000 cars. That's roughly the current car population in Singapore.

Now, imagine if car ownership rate in Singapore is 0.5-0.6 per person,
3,000,000 cars in Singapore - 10 times the current population.

6. Maid Levy - Do you know how much it cost to employ a "live-in" maid in Vancouver?

About CA$22,000-23,000 a year, which is almost S$29,000 a year.

Employing a live-in maid is a luxury in Vancouver, done almost exclusely by those living in landed properties (common there).

The employers actually rent out one of their rooms for the maid who pay them rent. The maids have fixed daily working hours, starting in morning, ends early evening, and then it's their own time. Saturdays and Sundays off, no question.

Singaporeans employing maids are actually getting a lot more from the maids for the salaries and levies paid - not that I applaud it.

Most Canadians don't even employ maids, so yeah, they dont pay for one.

7. Just how did the writer conclude Singaporeans pay S$1,000 for medical bills a year for 85 years???!!!!!

8. Cost of housing - sure. Vancouver is 5.6 times the size of Singapore and only 10% of Singapore's population. Are you comparing apples to apples?

9. Canada is 5th largest energy producer of the world - petroleum, gas, coal, uranium, you name it.
Is this a sensible comparison?

Benefits of Canada 1-6 : who pays for them?

Who's gonna pay for them if Singaporeans are gonna get them on same terms as Canadians?

I've been to Canada and I've enjoyed many things there.

The writer said we should not be fooled by statistics - yes, the stats he quoted for comparison purposes are useless and irrelevant.

He's right that ranking GDP per capita doesn't tell the real picture.

But neither did he make any meaningful comparison either.

Singapore does not have what Canada or Vancouver have.

If anyone wants to migrate from Singapore to Vancouver or some other parts of the world, that's up to him - I've considered it myself.

But nothing is for free.

It's paid for by someone, some taxpayers, or by plundering the earth.; February 23, 2012 12:30 AM
Tan Kin Lian said...: @Snowy Beagle

I read his article and agree with his points. I also know Wing Lee, from my past email exchange with him.

I also agree with your points and you have done a good job in presenting the other side of this matter.

I do not need to do all the review myself. Maybe Wing Lee will come in to give his rebuttal to your points.

Here are my own views.

a) Singapore has high taxes from the various sources mentioned by Wing Lee.

b) Although not everyone pays every tax, the total tax revenue collected by the Singapore Government is high - which is why they have high budget surplus.

c) I disagree with the Singapore Government on the way that the tax revenue is used - and a large part of it is used rather inefficiently and wastefully. I will write on this point separately.

d) I believe that more, much more, can be done by the Government to bring down the cost of living and to provide better health care, public transport and other social benefits.; February 23, 2012 5:43 AM
Tan Kin Lian said...: @ Snowy Beagle
The cost of medical care for the 85 year old is more than $1,000. It would probably cost $1,000 just to get Medishield (see http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres/D083E278-EB14-4F76-B024-D1C114882FB8/0/mshnew.pdf). If you add the deductible, co-insurance and outpatient visits (not covered by Medishield), the real cost is probably close to $2,500.; February 23, 2012 5:46 AM
Tan Kin Lian said...: @Snowy Beagle. Why do you have to say that you are surprised at my posting this article? Can you just give your comments, without being personal?; February 23, 2012 5:49 AM
Snowy Beagle said...: Mr Tan,

I'm not surprised at the article posted.

What I'm surprised is the lack of comments or context from you when you posted the article.

What are you trying to say or what do you want people to think when they read it?

Is it about a meaningful comparison of costs between Singapore and Vancouver?

The message appears to be it is just a matter of how the government handles it - SG government could make Singapore just like Vancouver if they do a few things differently.

You can say you agree with his points - is it his points or the facts he raised?

Facts are objective and verifiable.

We can easily determine how much a landed property in a good neighbourhood in Vancouver and in Singapore cost.

Points are a matter of interpretation, perspective - what is he trying to say?

He seems to be saying if the Singapore govt has done things differently, costs in Singapore would be like that in Vancouver.

If not, then what?

I think I've visited his blog before and I got nothing against him being happy there.

But it's very misleading if he thinks SG could have been just like Vancouver, if not for the government.

Even if SG government handles revenue according to how you think, I doubt SG can have what the Canadians or people in Vancouver are enjoying.

And I still don't understand what he (or you) means by Singaporean paying S$1000 / year for 85 years for medical bills.; February 23, 2012 11:49 AM
Tan Kin Lian said...: Hi Snowy Beagle

Sometimes I post with my comments.
And sometimes, I post an article without any comments. It depends on whether I have the luxury of time.

But you can assume that I would post an article that I generally agree with, even if I do not give any comments. That does not mean that I agree with every point in the article.

I do not agree with your approach to question me specifically on several points. You can express your own views, and that is what you have done.; February 23, 2012 1:19 PM
Tan Kin Lian said...: @Snowy Beagle, on the question of cost of housing, I know that it is too expensive in Singapore, in relation to the average income of the people. You can read my views here: http://www.easyapps.sg/assn/Org/file.aspx?id=208

My frank personal view is that the Singapore government did a bad job in allowing property prices, especially HDB flat prices, to go up so high that it becomes a burden to the people.

I do not know the prices in Vancouver, so I do not wish to make any comment about it.

I wish to express my views, and you are free to express your views, but I do not want to engage in a debate or be challenged on my views.

Let us express our respective views and let other readers form their own opinion.; February 23, 2012 1:25 PM
Tan Kin Lian said...: I share the view that Singaporeans pay a high rate of tax, considering COE, ERP, levy, GST, income tax, property tax, high cost of land (another form of tax).

The Government is collecting more tax than is needed, leading to budget surplus. I find several items of government spending to be rather wasteful and will talk about it in a separate article.

So, I do agree with the general thrust of the article by Wing Lee. I also accept that some of his comparisons are not apple to apple - as pointed out by other readers.; February 23, 2012 1:57 PM
Snowy Beagle said...: Mr Tan,

You don't have to agree with everything from an article before posting it.

You may even post an article about something you are opposed to.

But if you did not put in any disclaimer or comments about which part you agree or disagree with, it is hardly unfair for you to be questioned about specific points in the article.

After all, you chose to post the article on your own blog site - you are assuming certain responsibility or ownership of the article.

You say you support the article, but you admit you don't have the pertinent facts on specific points raised. Then what is your support based on?

If you do not want your views to be challenged, then I advise you to keep them to yourself instead of posting it online.

I don't know if you equate "challenging your views" only in negative ways, but if that is the case, then how will you ever learn any other views other than your own?

You may be right about your views about the things done by the Singapore government.

But trying to get it across using an article which cannot stand up to scrutiny undermines your own position.; February 23, 2012 2:16 PM
Tan Kin Lian said...: @Snowy Beagle
I now have to make this point, not only to you, but to quite a number of people like you.

Why do you have to teach me what I can or cannot do?

You may have your reason to do things your way, but you should also respect that I have my reasons to do things my way.

I want to make this point, not to be personal against you, but to show to other people reading this blog, that they also have a tendency to be judgement and to teach people what they should or should not do.

In my case, I do not want to impose my views on any other people or to teach them what they should or should not do.

If I appear to be judging another person, which is probably what I am doing in your case, it is usually in response to that person's judgement of my behavior.; February 24, 2012 10:37 AM
Snowy Beagle said...: Mr Tan,

I do not see anything I have posted as "teach you what you can or cannot do".

Pointing out the consequences of your actions is not teaching you.

When you post something, you can expect a response.

When you say you support an article, you can expect to be asked to answer for its contents.

Or to put it another way - what is the difference between
(a) you making a criticism of government revenue/policy and

(b) you imposing your views?

So far, you have shown that you are able to tolerate differing viewpoints by approving my comments in your blog.

But it is also very odd that you view it as "imposing my views" on you.

I did not demand that you MUST answer the points or questions I raised.

Raising questions is not the same as insisting you must answer them - in any case, I am in no position to insist either - it is your blog, you have the full control.

Good day.; February 24, 2012 11:03 AM
Tan Kin Lian said...: @Snowy Beagle

If "pointing out the consequence" is not 'teaching" then I don't know what is "teaching". Maybe it should be called "preaching" which is a higher level of teaching.

Anyway, we have enough discussion on this point and I do not wish to debate further.

I am not only addressing you, but to many people like you, who think that you are qualified to "point out consequence" to other people and to "tell them what they should do or should not do".

It is better to just focus on the issue and avoid being personal. If you think that taxes in Canada are higher than Singapore, just say so, and give your reasons. There is no need to question me on why I posted the article without giving my personal comments.; February 24, 2012 11:16 AM