Tan Kin Lian's Blog: Dr. Lim Hock Siew speaks out

Thursday, November 19, 2009

Dr. Lim Hock Siew speaks out

Video

23 comments:

Anonymous said...: When our mentor Minister cried on TV after announcing the Singapore/Malaysia separation,I cried along with him.
After watching this video I felt like crying again for this pitiful but exceptionally brave Communist.
Even though I am not a Communist, I really take my hat off to him.
Singapore has no moral right to request Myanmar to release Aug san su chi.; November 19, 2009 5:22 PM
Anonymous said...: I salute this man whether he is Communist or not.; November 19, 2009 6:16 PM
Anonymous said...: Sometimes mental torture is worse than physical abuse.; November 19, 2009 6:41 PM
Anonymous said...: i had posted that no matter how much SE pple talk,lament or cry sorrows;they have no guts to make e changes!term in & term out, same things said & written in many blogs;juz too bad that TKL omited my saying in some segment of comments so here's e catch,moral?what moral when u want 'politic'? simply saying it,if is YOUR LIFE, u fight enuf to make ur living worth e value of life,make a difference,make change or else, u empty vassels make e most noise!get a life,if this place does not fit u!; November 19, 2009 11:25 PM
Anonymous said...: To Anon 5:22:

Dr. Lim is not a communist. He is a socialist. Please note that there is a distinct difference between the two.

Who says Singapore has no moral right to request Myanmar to release Ang Sang Su Chi? She is the icon of political freedom and Singapore has every right to support her. As long as Singapore does not have a worst record of human rights, as long as Singapore is better than some other countries (in fact Singapore is better than at least 20 countries), it has every right to make the demand for her release.; November 20, 2009 12:47 AM
Vincent Sear said...: If we look around ourselves in Singapore, I think that we can find most civic and human rights as in America or Europe. However there're still glaring differences.

So-called lack or deprivation of human rights in Singapore is specifically targetted at certain political opponents or dissidents, not applied upon the populace.

Then, there's a compliant and supportive media that sing praises of the government ad nauseum.

Anyway, I'm not in support of Singapore meddling with other countries' domestic affairs and politics. It's quite presumptuous.; November 20, 2009 10:04 AM
Anonymous said...: A Different Time, A Different Ideological Struggle.

I think we should be mindful of a Different Paradigm today , even as we listened to Dr Lim.

I am respectful of what Dr Lim said. But it is quite difficult to make sense of the overall picture when we were not there at that point in time to understand what the actual situation was.

From
S'porean born in the mid 1960s.; November 20, 2009 10:28 AM
Anonymous said...: Kun Lian,
That is why it is important to accept the diversity of viws. Otherwise, one can slide into autocratice and dictatorship without realizing it.; November 20, 2009 10:52 AM
Anonymous said...: Old man surely not a buddhist or else his karma will haunt him on the day when he surrender his IC.

No matter how great he is or he think he is, he will have to answer for what he did to others when he died.

Good luck to him!; November 20, 2009 2:07 PM
Anonymous said...: OMG, this is atrocity!

Thought it only happened during WW2 Japanese occupation?

History will judge our "great dear leader" when he pass away...; November 20, 2009 2:13 PM
Anonymous said...: I refer to: "A Different Time, A Different Ideological Struggle."

I'm pretty sure a modern day neo-Nazi will share the same views.

"Well, it was a different place and time back in World War II.

It is quite difficult to make sense of the overall picture when we were not there at that point in time to understand what the actual situation was."

May I leave you with a famous quotation from Shakespeare. A fitting epitaph for the tombstones of dictators.

"Friends, Romans, Countrymen. Lend me your ears. I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him. The evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones."; November 20, 2009 2:28 PM
C H Yak said...: I agree with Anon. 10:52, I think there were standards on the morality issue on human rights and they were "double standards". To the British it was fighting for such rights but upon attaining it, it was depriving some of their rights because of a difference in ideology.

And if there was no diversity of views and someone as a trained lawyer can chose not to "discover" certain morals, and if it also took him so long to realise and admit his mistake just like the way to teach a second language, then we ought to at least empathise with this old man who was deprived of 20+ years of his "young age" and professional practice as a doctor, if not to sympathise and support him; whether he was a "commmunist", or "socialist", and or whatever.

In Singapore we have achieved and reach high "standards", and "double standards" are included, even up to today.; November 20, 2009 2:53 PM
C H Yak said...: I also agree with Anon. 2.28PM.

"The evil that men do lives after them."

And "history will repeat itself". This history may be a "blackout" to the new generations of leaders. If this doctor don't speak up, it is not going into the history book to teach man a lesson. A new generation of leaders may also "innovate" or "discover" this somehow and if the tide of the votes is going against them, this evil may be "re-engineer" and lives on based on established "precedence" just like Common Law cases ... whether or not a dead man can jump up from his grave to support it or admit a mistake.; November 21, 2009 8:56 AM
Anonymous said...: Nov 20 10.28am- A different time, a different ideological struggle....
The same ISA has been used in recent years, including so-called Maxist and former solicitor-general arrest , to silent critics.; November 21, 2009 9:27 AM
Vincent Sear said...: Singapore is small and history is short, but littered with quite many political "misadventurers" along the way. I got "boned-and-blooded" in politics when I was in the police force at the time Francis Seow and "marxist conspirators" were arrested.

There were others, some incarcerated, some exiled. Lim Chin Siong, Tan Wah Piow QC, Chia Thye Poh, Tang Liang Hong etc.; November 21, 2009 12:33 PM
Anonymous said...: It was because of LKY and his team of good and capable men, that Singapore is where it is.

To achieve the betterment of the entire country and the rest of ASEAN, drastic measures had to be meted out to dissidents. Lead, follow or get out of the way. The needs of many always outweighs the needs of a few and rightly so. It is the reality of life. You cannot please everyone.

Everything comes with a price. The good doctor has a choice to conform to the establishment. He choose not to and therefore has to pay a price. It is logical and nothing personal.

Had LKY and team not done what they did in all aspects of governing, Singapore will not be as successful as it is today. While I sympathise with this old man, I can only say: hard luck mate, you made your own choice.; November 21, 2009 12:59 PM
Anonymous said...: REX comments as follows,

It is easy to be saddened by this moving speech from a would-be leader who never made it. I sympathise with his predicament and have great respect for his tenacity and integrity of character.

Nevertheless, I would not go so far as to condemn the perpetrator, our Great Leader, either. For politics is cruel "political power comes from the barrel of a gun". In those turbulent days it was necessary to suppress as much as possible the opposition, so our Dear Leader did what was best for him in the ruthless political game, just as any leader would. Remember leaders are not saints, they are politicians. Their primary job is not to be charitable. Do not expect their hearts to be made of gold. Such things happen only in fairy tales.

The great american civilisation, it arose in this way too. Think of how the white americans suppressed conquered and destroyed all the native american indians and took over their land and ended up as heroes right up to today. There is no moral right or wrong, it is survival of the fittest, the law of the jungle, in politics.

What really matters is this -- after a political leader has asserted his power, does he proceed to make life better for the populace. If "yes", all is forgotten, just as we seemingly forgive the white men in America who decimated the indians and took over the land. If "no", then the ghost of the past will continue to stir up the sons of the land and some day a bloody revolution of the righteousness will turn the situation round.

REX
(uh. maybe not singapore, the sons of the land are all kiasu kiasi only thnking of their own rice bowls ...); November 21, 2009 3:55 PM
Ghim Moh Resident said...: Hi,

I salute this man too and agree with earlier views that Singapore has no moral right to request Myanmar to release Aung San Su Chi when it itself has human rights issues too.

No matter how opposing their views are to the government, they should never be treated this way.; November 22, 2009 2:17 AM
Anonymous said...: I refer to ANON (12.59pm)

"To achieve the betterment of the entire country and the rest of ASEAN, drastic measures had to be meted out to dissidents. Lead, follow or get out of the way. The needs of many always outweighs the needs of a few and rightly so. It is the reality of life. You cannot please everyone."

You are going down a dangerous path. Let me make this more personal for you.

"To achieve the betterment of IMPERIAL JAPAN IN WORLD WAR II, drastic measures had to be meted out to dissidents (SINGAPOREANS).

Lead, follow ( i.e. COLLABORATE) or get out of the way.

The needs of many JAPANESE always outweighs the needs of a few SINGAPOREAN CIVILIANS and rightly so. (30,000 Singapore civilians were massacred in the Sook Ching Massacre)

It is the reality of life. You cannot please everyone."

It is considered an Asian tradition to look after your ageing parents. The needs of the few (parents) outweigh the needs of the many (filial children and their immediate families).

My final message to ANON 12.59pm. One day, it will be your turn to be discarded. Something cheaper, better, faster and younger will come along and then it will be your turn to go. When you live by the sword of efficiency, you will die by the sword of efficiency.

Please consider to study history. Many of the debates here today, are over the same issues for which millions have fought and died for in the past.

For example, Thomas Jefferson (3rd President of USA, link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson) addresses many of the issues discussed here.

"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?"

Following is extracted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

Jefferson believed that each individual has "certain inalienable rights." That is, these rights exist with or without government; man cannot create, take, or give them away.

It is the right of "liberty" on which Jefferson is most notable for expounding. He defines it by saying, "Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others.

I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." Hence, for Jefferson, though government cannot create a right to liberty, it can indeed violate it.

The limit of an individual's rightful liberty is not what law says it is but is simply a matter of stopping short of prohibiting other individuals from having the same liberty.

A proper government, for Jefferson, is one that not only prohibits individuals in society from infringing on the liberty of other individuals, but also restrains itself from diminishing individual liberty.; November 22, 2009 9:01 AM
Anonymous said...: Rex comments on anon. 9.01 pm Nov 22

Why do you quote Jefferson? Many people think that the early generation of american leaders are great men, many westernised singaporeans think so too. Do not forget that for the very reason which jefferson condemned, he and his forfathers are actually, also guilty of - the "great" american civilisation robbed the north ameirican indians of their land and everything. Is it not hypocritical, to declare that a good leader must respect the rights, of the people blah blah blah, when in fact nobody, even Jeffersons had done since Day 1? The so called great american presidents always try not to remember, that their civilisation was also built on a bloody conquest of the original natives of the land, and deprivation of their rights through sheer bullying and firepower.

That is why i said, you can decimate the population, strip it of its rights, and still be perceived as "great" leader, so long as the majority of the new wave population benefits and are sheltered from the harsh historical realities.

Everything is relative - to self. Because we are all selfish, and this human rights things is blown out of proportion by the american media.

That's life, it is cruel, so, what LKY did to the good Doctor, is understandable, as suggested by myself and ANON (12.59pm). You and I may not like it, but it's life. And i don't buy the Jefferson nonsense.

REX; November 24, 2009 1:12 PM
Anonymous said...: Rex comments

I have no doubt that the Jefferson METHOD of not torturing or killing their political enemies as Hitler or Gen Yamashita did, is highly admirable.

But I don't have any specific admiration for the human being named as "Jefferson" as I would have for Confucious or Buddha because the latter, do not have blood on their hands. Jefferson has blood on his hands - because his great great great parents were part of the team which decimated the American Indians Civilisation, robbed them of their rights, fine tuned historical records and mass media, so that the new white man is seen as the hero, always, to this day, 2009
As a consequence many americans, feel proud of :their: land and :their: heritage, conveniently forgetting the horrendous massacres and bloodsheds in the colonial years and systematic stripping of the rights and ownership of land of the native indians.

Today most people(except those with stubborn long memory) look up to America-white, eternally citing examples of their "great" leaders. Not that what these white men are doing in the forward way, is wrong. Their principles of freedom and democracy is for sure, correct. Yet I would not put a face behind it, a Washington or Jefferson even a Lincoln.

By all means glorify a principle but not the man. By all means say "human rights" is the right way to go. But do not quote any names Jefferson, Washington, all the american pride bullshit. Their ancestors have blood all over them, and not just in american soil. Read the bible especially Chronicles and Kings in the old testament.

The history of the world is the history of stealing land, and power, and systematically forgetting the past, and hiding the shameful parts, make no mistake about it. LKY did it, Jefferson did it, same same.
阿弥陀佛

REX; November 25, 2009 7:40 AM
Anonymous said...: Hi again Rex.
In all your previous postings in this blog, you strike me as a sincere, clear thinking person.

So, I am very puzzled by your stand, perhaps best summarized by the statement "Jefferson has blood on his hands - because his great great great parents were part of the team which decimated the American Indians Civilisation ....... "

I'm not familiar with Jefferson's family tree, but I'm pretty sure that Jefferson (like everybody else) would have an ancestor somewhere in the past that has committed atrocities.

But like jeffrerson, if we all could trace back our family tree far enough, I'm sure we will all find some ancestors who have committed atrocities we are ashamed of.

Regrettably, I'm sure, Buddha or Confucious would also likely have some shameful ancestors somewhere in the dim past.

Buddha, before he became Buddha, was Prince Siddhartha Gautama. Respectfully, royal families inevitably will likely have blood on their hands somewhere along the way to becoming royalty. Maybe it's different for Buddha.

But can you really be sure that Buddha's ancestors never had blood on their hands at any point in their entire history?

I do agree with you that we should "glorify the principle and not the man." All men fall short of the glory of their ideas and ideals.

Yours Respectfully ....; November 25, 2009 11:16 PM
Anonymous said...: Hi REX comments again,

Admittedly, i am neither an authority on the lineage of Jefferson nor Buddha and you are quite right that Buddha ancestors could possibly also destroyed other indians. Nonetheless, i felt it easier to extrapolate Mr. Jefferson's background than Mr. Gautama, because the american history (a.k.a. the Lone Rangers hi ho silver away, the last of the Mohicans, etc ) of colonisation, though obscure, comes to mind more easily. India's kings on the other hand could have fought wars internally but it is indian killing indian it was a domestic issue, not White man killing (Red) Indian. white man has no business in (Red) Indian territory and deprive them of rights, and take over what was for sure originally theirs. Mind you, that is not the worst part - the worst part is white man invoke the concept of a loving God, "promised land" stupid hypocritical concepts to justify their onslaught and massacres (read 1 Kings and Chronicles) in the style of Hitler. I do not think there are hypocrisies of such type, and scale, in india even if there is blood in its history.

Yes, we should strive to glorify a principle. Period.

REX; November 26, 2009 12:39 PM

Thursday, November 19, 2009

Dr. Lim Hock Siew speaks out

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