Tan Kin Lian's Blog: Full particulars of investors of credit linked securities

Monday, October 06, 2008

Full particulars of investors of credit linked securities

I wish to collect full particulars of investors to be submitted to the Monetary Authority of Singapore - including age, language, contact information, amount invested, type of structured product and distributor. Complete information has to be provided this time.

If you wish to provide the information, please click here: http://www.petitiononline.com/PICLS2/petition.html

---------------------------------

Update:
I have collected sufficient information and will close this "petition" now.

Someone asked me to state what the particulars are to be used for. A senior person in MAS asked me if I have information about older people, especially those that are not literate in English, who have been asked to invest in these structured products. This is why I have asked for age, language and occupation. I am not sure at this time, if this information will be helpful to get MAS to take a pro-active stand.

47 comments:

Anonymous said...: Why your posting date is post dated to Oct 11?; October 04, 2008 4:19 PM
Tan Kin Lian said...: I posted a future date, so that this posting will remain at the top of my blog.; October 04, 2008 4:46 PM
Tan Kin Lian said...: Someone asked me if they have to sign this petition again, as they have already signed the earlier Petition to the Sg Govt.

This is optional. In the earlier Petition, I asked for just a few particulars. In this "petition" I asked for full details.; October 04, 2008 5:19 PM
YubSan said...: The recent announcement by MAS seems like a typical "wash hands off" type of comment. It is very disappointing and very revealing. I hope MAS will re-consider their position and take a more active role in helping those affected recover their hard earned money. Afterall the banks had clearly misrepresented their clients and I believe MAS was fully aware of the situation at least to some extent and so they should step up to the plate and act more responsibly to the public.; October 04, 2008 9:04 PM
Anonymous said...: Mr. Tan, I have signed the petition. I consider these information are confidential. I would like you not to publish these information in your blog. Please consider only publish our name.

Thank you.; October 04, 2008 9:05 PM
Tan Kin Lian said...: To 9.05 pm.

Of course! The personal details are confidential and will not be published in the blog.; October 04, 2008 9:56 PM
Anonymous said...: And also, apart from confidentiality, the information provided should not be shared, used in any form to promote products, or intimation without the consent of the person.

Is that so?.

Would like to include this clause as well,... it's been so many issues happened towards small retail investors, due to the small fine prints, or even the none existence of some clause due to this.

Rgds,
Joe B; October 04, 2008 10:02 PM
Singapore Short Stories said...: Dear Mr Tan,

Would MAS treat the details in a confidential manner also?; October 04, 2008 10:12 PM
Tan Kin Lian said...: I am sure that MAS will also treat the information in confidence.

Frankly, if you do not trust me or MAS, it is better that you do not provide the information.; October 04, 2008 10:34 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Mr Tan,

MAS has issued statement saying
"the independent parties will review the internal complaints ....." Then it goes on to say "the independent parties will not be personally involved in the resolution ....of... complaints" and "that while regulatory actions are important...and uphold the integrity of the system, they do not lead to compensation for investors". Then why appoint them at all!! So that MAS can make money (by imposing a fine) out of the misery of individuals?

Heng Swee Keat, Managing Director, MAS, said, "We understand the high level of anxiety that investors in some structured products are feeling. Our immediate focus is on helping investors to get a quick and fair resolution of their complaints" Double talk?

The FIDRC has power to ask the banks to compensate up to $50K only.

So its really a "show show" to me.

Kin Lian, better to get a lawyer to represent all if the petition fails to move anyone.; October 04, 2008 11:50 PM
ym said...: i m afradi that if MAS, FIDREC allow banks to privately settle these cases (in secret) it will be at a disadvantage to certain investors (eg those less well-connected, those less aware of their rights, those less educated in financial matters)

a transparent and fair method must be adopted..; October 05, 2008 1:27 AM
ym said...: if the seller misrepresented (either negligently, innocently, fradulently) the product, then the contract is void and can ask for full compensation of loss..

but can we determine if there was misrepresentation?; October 05, 2008 1:40 AM
Anonymous said...: Thanks Mr Tan. I have submitted my full particulars too.

Getting a lawyer would be the last resort. How do we fight with the banks financially?

But we are not expecting Mr Tan to foot the money even if it comes to the extent.

I believe with the amount of victims involved, opening an online account (paypal? bank transfer?) and inviting everyone to chip in, there should be enough.

I believe many victims have enough trust for Mr Tan.; October 05, 2008 2:55 AM
Anonymous said...: I've signed the petition but I'm realistic about the possibilities.

In any other country like US, Taiwan or Hong Kong, the chances for the small guy would be much better. But in Singapore, you can't say the same. Already, we can see a very different reaction from our authorities to the situation. They have distanced themselves, and small investors have to be prepared to take the loss.; October 05, 2008 6:49 AM
ym said...: investment bankers are a shady bunch..

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122307836192004059.html

Unsecured creditors of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. asked a court overseeing the securities firm's bankruptcy proceedings for permission to investigate how Lehman ran out of money.

The creditors' group alleges that J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., which acted as a financial middleman between Lehman and other lenders, helped spark a "liquidity crisis" at Lehman before the firm filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings earlier this month, according to a filing in federal bankruptcy court in New York.; October 05, 2008 9:52 AM
WY said...: Hi Mr. Tan,

I wonder whether there are any professional bodies, licencing bodies for relationship officer, banker, product sales etc..
I guess some FI or its staffs who sold the products maybe under the law/regulations/licences/ethical codes of professional bodies (for e.g CFP, CFA, accounting bodies etc…).
Can we report the cases to them too ?
I wonder whether when the stakes are higher (losing licence/permit to practice/professional qualifications), they will then heed the voices of poor investors.

But I think have to be fair too, as may kill somebody’s career. Only punish the unethicals.

Can shareholders of FI help ? But I guess AGM is still far away.
Tell shareholders FI which cheats on customers may cheat on shareholders too..
Wonder whether this is “defamatory”.

Frankly, don’t think all these will ensure getting compensation.
Hopefully FI will submit considering the cost on future business, shareholders/investors/customers action.

Wonder whether some statistics of the petition can be revealed to the public (age group, total amount, distributor and combinations of these etc.)

I am going to avoid future transactions with those unethical distributors.; October 05, 2008 2:57 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Mr. Tan,

I am not a victim of DBS's Highnote 5. I also learnt that you aren't as well, but you took the efforts to speak up for the old and poor, the people who are most affected by Lehman Brother's fall.

I will like to thank you for your willingness to help those who have no relations to you. Singapore needs gentlemen like you, Mr. JBJ and others who will do their part for Singaporeans.

Thank you for doing your part. You have shown the rest of us what it takes to be a truly compassionate, civil minded citizen. You give the rest of us faith that this country is not beyond redemption.

Thank you, from the bottom of my heart.; October 05, 2008 3:07 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Mr Tan, thank you very much for spearheading the aggrieved investors interest in their investment losses. You have been most forthcoming in your assistance. MAS request for full particulars of aggrieved investors through you is out of line. If MAS truly wants to help the investors they should come out publicly, show the way,provide an avenue for investor to provide their particulars. Really puzzling!!!; October 05, 2008 5:09 PM
Tan Kin Lian said...: Hi 5:09 PM

This is my initiative. I want to look for people, especially elderly folks, who have invested their life savings, to give to MAS. I also want to send particulars of people who have invested large sums of money.

I agree with your view that MAS should come out publicly to help the investors. So far, they prefer to leave it to the financial institutions.

We know that the results have been quite unsatisfactory, from the perspective of the retail investors.; October 05, 2008 5:47 PM
ym said...: Mr Tan,
This is an interesting article abt the CDS market :
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a.o1tHRJoe.k&refer=home

[One basis point on a credit-default swap contract protecting $10 million of debt from default for five years is equivalent to $1,000 a year.]; October 05, 2008 8:58 PM
Anonymous said...: The FIs are protected in all the finery of their small print.; October 05, 2008 9:05 PM
hkeric said...: Up til now, the HK government seems not to be doing anything to help the victims. The public views on whether the banks should refund the victims are kind of diverse. Some old people are obviously misleaded by the bank staff, while others should have to bear their investment risk.; October 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Anonymous said...: After we have tried all the methods: lodging complaints to FIs, petition to MAS and still no reults, we should organise ourself to see PM LHL.; October 06, 2008 11:20 AM
Anonymous said...: Mr Tan, Congratulations, your blog reach 500,000 visitors now
Warmest Regards & thanks
S K Ngai
your Blog reader; October 06, 2008 11:34 AM
Anonymous said...: Mr.Tan
I had a tele conversation with an asso.of HSBC on their helpline.
Very little was gleamed except when I asked he told me over 8000 people invested in minibond.
Hope this info is useful.

Peter Loh - 109; October 06, 2008 12:10 PM
Anonymous said...: Finance Minister Tharman made the following remarks yesterday:

"He warned against over-regulating, saying risk is inherent in the system.

'We have to avoid swinging in a pendulum-like fashion when it comes to the regulation of financial products.

'There have to be improvements in marketing and selling and disclosure. There are learning points coming out from the recent problems.

'(But) let's not swing to over-regulation because that is going to increase costs and it's going to reduce the range of products that meet everyone's needs.'

He cited as an example Lehman Bonds, which, as late as July, were rated A1 by credit-rating agency Moody's. The highest rating is Aaa."

From what he described on the Lehman Minibond, it is all over for the investors. Nothing left...

'Should MAS say A1 bonds should not be bought by people? I think that would be over-regulation, but it turned out that Lehman Bonds went bust.

'So it's an example of how there is risk in the system, there is no way you can get it out of the picture by over-regulation unless you over-regulate to the extent you cut out options to sensible investors.

'So let's find a suitable middle ground (to) improve the system.'; October 06, 2008 6:34 PM
Anonymous said...: I have anticipated such comments from PAP ministers, both in style and substance.

Too bad folks, learn an expensive lesson and move on.; October 06, 2008 7:17 PM
Anonymous said...: It is very tough to strike a balance between over-regulated countries (like Malaysia and China) and loosely regulated countries like Singapore and Hong Kong. As Singapore and Hong Kong want to be the Asian Financial Centre, the central banks of these countries want to open up their financial markets. This is exactly the price that their residents have to suffer when certain products (like the Minibond) turned bad. People in Malaysia and China are not affected by this whole saga because their central banks over regulate financial products.

My question is:
If Singapore opts to loosely regulate financial products, then what kind of protection can it provide for its residents?; October 06, 2008 7:22 PM
Anonymous said...: Over regulation is better than under regulation. It proves again that Malaysia is right about the need to do so.; October 06, 2008 8:52 PM
Anonymous said...: Light touch regulation is the way to go.; October 06, 2008 8:59 PM
Anonymous said...: The prospectus of high notes 5 gives the investors the impression that the risk is spread out to the 8 financial instituitions. If one of the entities in the basket failed, you still can fall back on the other 7. It also gives you the impression that the constellation was purchasing papers directly from those banks.; October 06, 2008 9:02 PM
Anonymous said...: You may not believe it, these products are sold not only in Singapore but to the neighbouring countries..You must be proud of the Singaporean salesmanship. I am a non resident. Where can I get help?; October 06, 2008 9:05 PM
Anonymous said...: Hi,

Thx John Koh for your info.

I wonder whether the Finance Minister is "misquoted". Do you have the news link ?

I think there is a very big difference between A1 bond and swap/derivative guaranteeing A1 bond. Minibond is not a "bond".

If even a Finance Minister cannot understand this, I wonder how uncles/aunties can avoid being conned into buying minibond.

Probably the case of misrepresentation is stronger now :-); October 06, 2008 9:21 PM
Anonymous said...: Finance Minister Tharman's statement on Lehman Minibond is in the Straits Times today:

http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_286471.html; October 06, 2008 10:29 PM
Anonymous said...: WILL THE SINGAPORE AUTHORITIES DO THE SAME AS WHAT THE HK GOVERNMENT IS DOING AS PER FOLLOWING REPORT:-

Reuters Report 6th October 2008 HK urges banks to buy back Lehman-linked securities

HONG KONG, Oct 6 (Reuters) - Hong Kong's government proposed on Monday a way to let investors recoup some losses from a reported $2 billion in securities linked to failed Lehman Brothers (LEHMQ.PK: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz), urging distributing banks to buy the bonds back.

Tens of thousands of investors have bought Lehman-issued and referenced credit-linked notes, called mini-bonds, worth HK$15.6 billion ($2 billion), local newspapers reported. Hundreds of investors have protested outside banks in past weeks, seeking their money back.

Financial Secretary John Tsang discussed his proposal with the banks involved on Monday, some of which had given a "positive response". Under the scheme, banks would buy back the mini-bonds at a value to be decided on, Tsang said.

"This represents the best way forward," he said, adding it would help avoid a "long and tedious" liquidation process.

"This proposal will enable the investors to get some of their money back quickly," he said.

The trustee of the bonds, HSBC agreed to disclose to distributors details of the value of the underlying collateral on the securities, he added.

Tsang said it was unlikely that investors would get back all their money. A total of 16 banks and three brokerages distributed the products in Hong Kong. (Reporting by Alison Leung; Editing by Lincoln Feast); October 06, 2008 10:37 PM
Anonymous said...: Believe chances of compensation are good - only how many %. If all boycott buying investment products due to no compensation, FIs will lose much more in the long run.; October 06, 2008 11:14 PM
Anonymous said...: With recession cloud looming over our sky, Singapore government continues to raise cost of living:

1. Transport fees are up
2. Utility fees are up
3. Airport fees are up
4.....
And now telephone fixed line fees are also going up...

It seems to me that this government has recently sped up its pace to increase all kinds of fees before our recession finally arrives...

When is the next election?; October 06, 2008 11:27 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Mr Tan,

I appreciate your efforts in helping the poor and elderly. I see this as a good opportunity for MAS to set more stringent standards in the Singapore banking industry.; October 06, 2008 11:44 PM
Anonymous said...: Our ministers have not even started talking directly to banks yet, unlike HK. And with the comments by Tharman, what outcome do folks expect? So what if there are petitions, police report, CASE report, Hong Lim rally, meet MP etc. Life goes on and with foreign talents if necessary. Another uniquely Singapore for folks to realise.; October 06, 2008 11:52 PM
Anonymous said...: I hope if MAS really take action, it is not just helping the old and illiterate investors. Young and literate investors equally feel misguided by FIs. All should be compensated.; October 07, 2008 12:25 AM
Unknown said...: I was astonished to read that Mr Tharman said that the Notes are rated A1.

The prospectus clearly stated as follows:
"Rating: The Notes will not be rated by any rating agency".; October 07, 2008 12:44 AM
Anonymous said...: Up to now there is no full and detailed disclosures of what are the actual underlying securities, nor any mention of their uptodate values. The trustees have also not categorically and publicly stated whether they physically still hold these underlying securities and given some inkling of what they are, their original and current estimated market values. Can't they release all these details immediately? I wonder what is keeping them from keeping quiet and from letting the investors and public know.; October 07, 2008 10:27 AM
Anonymous said...: I am extremely disappointed by Tharman's remarks below. It clearly show the government did not attempt to understand the situation. He is still on page 1 - thinking that Minibond is a bond as we did a few weeks ago.

Come election I WILL NOT FORGET who helped and who did not in my time of need.

"He cited as an example Lehman Bonds, which, as late as July, were rated A1 by credit-rating agency Moody's. The highest rating is Aaa.

'Should MAS say A1 bonds should not be bought by people? I think that would be over-regulation, but it turned out that Lehman Bonds went bust. "; October 07, 2008 12:48 PM
Anonymous said...: My simple 2cents worth. In my opinion, Mr. Tharman was citing an example when he stated that Lehman Bonds are rated A1, which is a relatively high rating. But it was not in direct relation with Minibonds.

Lehman is the arranger for Minibonds, but it does not interfere directly with the investment monies. I do empathize that the naming of Minibonds (after the company Minibond Limited) is misleading to the general public. Minibonds is a note and is therefore not capital protected. Sadly, many investors were not clearly informed.

All things in life carry risk to varying degrees. Making an investment is a risk as well. It is definately saddening to see many investors not having a clear or full understanding of the products they purchase. I hope the recent events will allow us all to be more cautious with our decision-making in the future, not forgetting that we have to take fair responsibility for our decisions and the trust we place in others.

I sincerely pray that there can be a white knight in the entire investment structure to banish the current gloom n endless worries away.; October 07, 2008 3:49 PM
Anonymous said...: Mr Tan,

Why don't you stand for the next election? But pls do not join the PAP. However, do not follow the footsteps of JBJ either.; October 07, 2008 4:58 PM
Anonymous said...: Hi Mr Tan,

Actually, the senior person of MAS should ask all Banks to provide details of customers affected by those products to MAS. Only Central Bank can ask Banks to provide such info. Once the data are collected, MAS can then easily analyse the affected consumers' age group, amount invested, etc.

Ex-bank employee; October 07, 2008 10:33 PM
Anonymous said...: Let us vote Mr Tan Kin Lian as our next People's President for the Republic of Singapore.

I will be the 1st to cast my vote for President Tan.; October 08, 2008 3:18 PM

Monday, October 06, 2008

Full particulars of investors of credit linked securities

47 comments:

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