Tan Kin Lian's Blog: My blog and its target audience

Monday, November 17, 2008

My blog and its target audience

I write this blog to educate the general public about financial planning, insurance and social issues in Singapore.

I advised people against investing in high cost financial products, such as structured products, certain types of life insurance products, time share and land banking.

The people who sell these products dislike my views. They attack me by posting anonymous and mischievous comments in my blog. I have to block these comments.

Some people also use my blog to attack NTUC Income, their agents and products. I also block these comments.

If you wish to submit comments that differ from my views, you can state them honestly and fairly, and use your real name. I will be happy to post them.

If you dislike the views posted in my blog, you should stop visiting it. My blog is not meant for people who make a living selling products that I discourage. You can create your own blog to argue the merits of your products and encourage people to visit your blog.

31 comments:

Anonymous said...: Good points. Agreed.; November 17, 2008 7:39 PM
Anonymous said...: Mr. Tan,

Your views can be quite extreme and imbalance. I hope you can do the right thing.

Perhaps if you do not mind, go and get an FA license and personally take direct responsibility into people's life. This will have a direct impact on persons' life. I do not wish to sound like "attacking" you (I am not) but I feel that you are just shouting from the side without wanting to be at the forefront of the "battlefield." It is always easy to say a lot of things from the sideline. Things will be different if you are directly involved in people like an adviser would. When you were CEO of Income, you also did not take direct responsibility into customers' life. It was your agents who did that.; November 17, 2008 8:37 PM
Anonymous said...: I think that what Mr Tan wrote is very fair and honest. If we all argue (as we do in good times) that the market place will decide then surely we should let investors decide after they hear all nthe arguments. If a person really wants to promote a product then he/she should not hide behind generalizations such as "let the investor beware" when things go wrong. Just ask ourselves, what would have happened by now if Mr Tan had not offered his opinios and insights in his blog. What would we really know of the toxic products that are sold. Making a living is one thing, but I am sure we all agree that it is best to try to make a honest living.; November 17, 2008 10:23 PM
adego said...: Mr Tan, while it may be true that buy term and invest the rest seems very efficient in the use of premium, with low investment cost...

Maybe we put things in perspective, if you have the means to fully own and operate a life insurance company, how would you run your operation?

By just offering only term products and sell investment funds?

Would the operation be profitable enough to last through generations?

Will the company be there to pay the claims? Who will service the clients for claims matters, beside the claims officer? That could mean that the clients will have to run many trips, before they receive the claims check.

Lets say there is this group of retirees, they are retiring during this time, that the market is offering negative returns, and they somehow has only 3 to 6 months cash for their livelihood, with the rest tied to the investment fund, with bonds and equity fell sharply(negative double digit returns), and they are forced to sell their investment (say progressively), and what if they run out of cash and investment quickly, and no longer able to fund the insurance premium? And more bad news, they fell ill, and happens to lapsed the H&S...; November 17, 2008 10:40 PM
adego said...: On credit cards...

I have seen pple who can handle credit very well, and earn points to redeem gifts, and pay the bill on time, and benefit fully from credit card facilities.

Another extreme scenario, there are pple I know, who can't help, but pay minimum pymt month after month, and help the credit card companies to earn fat profits by paying them 24% interest for decades of their lives.

some plans such as limited pay WLCI could be helpful, or even the limited pay Term CI, to help this group of people, who can't handle money very well... they might earn a high income, but their spending is also very high, which frequently exceeds their earnings.

pple who has no (or low) money discipline could easily lapse the term plans, and prematurely enjoy the investment money.

BTITR may be a very cost effective plan, but it's not going to work very well for this group of pple.; November 17, 2008 11:12 PM
Anonymous said...: Frankly speaking, Tan and his blog help many investors. He let them feel that there is someone there who care and support them. He let them stay with hope.

Am not sure how many investors will commit suide or suffer from depression if without the leading and counsultation given by Tan.

The speech at the speaker corner is needed as it provide a good chance for everyone to share their pain together.; November 17, 2008 11:19 PM
Anonymous said...: On timeshare, I was pressured into buying a vacation club in Thailand after sitting in the Temple Street office for almost 8 hours. One year into paying instalments, they offered to upgrade us, and at the moment the installment is fully paid, they shifted. That was 1999, thereafter my husband tried to locate it and we quarrelled many times. Finally in 2007 we went to Subordinated Courts after learning for the first time (!) that it may be a criminal offence, the intent of which is to cheat & disappear with the money. The Subordinate Court summoned us & the director of the company and he came with his very articulate Indian lawyer, the Director claimed he knew nothing and he only become a director in 2001. So far, we have gone 2 times to the Courts, but without a lawyer, our investments of $10k is a gone case. The Director who sold us the timeshare is a top insurance agent then. Friend ask me to seek lawyer but costs may weigh more than the 10k. This coming December will be the 3rd time we going to Court. Yes, I learnt my lesson with $10k and lots of quarrel with my husband.

Mrs Chua; November 17, 2008 11:56 PM
zhummmeng said...: adego,
so you think that the company must cheat in order to survive today? It is true that the companies are cheating to survive.Insurance is becoming more like a Ponzi business and they need an army of unethical agents to help them to keep the wheel turning.That is why they need to have dubious par products.That is why companies are reducing the annual bonus structure and pushing it the terminal bonus for them to gamble, to try their luck. Soon they tell you no need annual bonus but they will pay very high terminal bonus or return. The catch is provided we make money.Recently the last company to join them was a cooperative.
If you understand the cost structure of whole life and understand why whole life or par products are rip off you would 't want to buy any of them.Yes it is capital guaranteed and that is what they are at best. Their strategy is like the zero coupon call option strategy.
Nowadays, for every dollar 90 cents go to pay the commission of the agents and the high operating cost like the ceo's million dollar salary 3 times higher than the old ceo, more highly paid generals, more chiefs and leaving you 10 cents to cover the cost of insurance and the rest to invest for you with 70% or 5 cents in low return bonds and 2 cents in equities.
Last time the operating cost was 40 cents and 60 cents went to insurance and investment. 15 year bonds were paying yield of 12% now the 20 year bond pays 3.5 %
From these you can see the rotten protection and return.
Today every thing is going up and up except return.
Today ,as a customer will you invest in an insurance product that gives a projected return of 3% only AFTER 30 years and low protection value too.
You are MUCH BETTER OFF investing yourself.
The single premium endowment used to give 6.5% after 10 years. Today it is struggling with 4%.
If that is what the insurance companies can offer, does it not make sense to use the BTITR options.
Talking about retirement it is not what you argue and envisage. It shows your limited knowledge of investment. Probably you learned from the insurance agents. The scenerio you have drawn shows the wrong asset allocations and poor portfolio management and the H&S insurance shouldn't have lapsed if it is CPF funded.
Your scenerio looks like you have a f agent or wolf running your chicken house.; November 18, 2008 12:21 AM
Anonymous said...: Well anonymous (2037),

Like what Mr. Tan said, you should stop visiting his blog if you think his views are imbalanced. Thats what i do, i dont visit the blogs that i think writes rubbish.

Another thing, you claim he was not "directly" involved. Dont you think being a CEO in charge of the general direction holds more responsibility? The upper management shapes the lower levels. The attitude of those involved "directly" get their clues from him, and they affect 1 person at a time. He affects many at once.

Now which role sound like having a heavier responsibility?; November 18, 2008 12:46 AM
Anonymous said...: If people are not disciplined nothing works for them, no product can instill discipline.
Adego, you seem like a broken record.
Insurance agents have been singing this tune and they will sing with whatever lyrics as long they are whole life , limited or otherwise and also more importantly high commission.
Are you an insurance agent with NTUC? or you have someone in there.

Pissed off with WL; November 18, 2008 12:58 AM
adego said...: zm, I suggest u to be a life insurance agent for 6 month to feel the ground

next, work as a management trainee in the insurance company to understand the dynamics of the product cycle, operation, compliance, company's top and bottom line and etc.

if u think it is a ponzi scheme, u should STOP buying any insurance right now.

MR. Warren Buffett owns several insurance companies, FYI. Nobody would call him a ponzi, but worship him...(I did not, I worship God)

If you are really that smart on investment matters, u should be a fund manager or a full time investor, like Mr. Buffett, that would give u some weight when u talk about these issues.

if u feel that Single premium endwt plan sucks, then don't place yr money there. u can always invest yrself. u may make double digit returns in 5 yrs and brag about it (wish u well), or u may loose big time and keep mummm (u have the right), but please prove it u can do it better, as a lay man and demo to others. u don't have to bash them so emotionally, relax...

illustrate yr own experience to show us (use real stuff), u have done it, much better than the insurance company, i.e. risk vs rewards. that would be very helpful.

Simple question, please answer:
If u buy a term plan from this insurance company J, do u wish to see this company:
(A) To Fail
(B) To barely survive, & not sure how long it could last to deliver promises (claims)
(C) stay profitable and able to serve through generations, because of strong biz model
(D) Anything you wish...but may not be realistic; November 18, 2008 1:15 AM
adego said...: zm, to respond to the issue of 'asset allocation'

FYI, at least 90% of the bond funds in singapore lost money. most of them lost more than 10% over the 6 month period. some high-yield fund lost 38% over 6month period, excluding sales charge.

that was due to partly, a 'credit crisis', currency losses, and risk aversion (collective exodus) and mass redemption (& probably more reasons).

even money market fund lost money, go check it out!

maybe tell me yr asset allocation for a retiree or nearing retirement... don't be shy...

if u have 100% allocation in bonds, the Efficient Frontier tells u it is NOT Efficient, even then, it is still 'Safer'.

Yes, it's safer, but still lost double digits % if u invested 6 months ago.

u may recover, u may not

with the 10Yr US Treasury yield of 3.7%, which is historically low, u sure u want to follow the EF to allocate 80% bond and 20% Eqty?

With interest rate environment worldwide at historical low level, u sure u want to follow the EF? Assuming u are going to retire in 5yrs or less

Tell us yr strategy, we can learn from u. Thanks in advance!; November 18, 2008 1:30 AM
Anonymous said...: It is a standard debating point to tell critics: if you think you know better why not do it. Base on that, we should all shut up. Do not complain if the furniture you buy is faulty. The salesman will tell you, if you know better build yourself a sofa. Do not mind if the food your order is poorly cooked. Hey, if you know better cook the food yourself. You are in a taxi. The driver is driving erratically and is in danger of collison. Please do not object. After all, you are not the taxi driver. Now, we may not be financial experts (certainly we are not paid that much) but we all know when there is mis-selling and poor service. Let's be objective: would all this talk about mis-selling be necessary in the first place if the financial institutions had done their homework? The issue is not the mom and pop investors, the retirees or the town councils; the issue is simply, did the fianancial institutions mis-sell? Surely, this is the crux of the matter. Who wished for discussions like this? Surely, people are not saying: actually let yourself be screwed but please do not complain. You are not an expert, leave it to us, after all we are the experts. Just shut up and accept it. Are we saying that this is the Singapore way? If that is so all the thinking skills we tout in our schools should be thrown on to the rubbish heap!; November 18, 2008 7:33 AM
Anonymous said...: Mr Tan. I am grateful for the focus you have brought on land banking. Some of the land banking companies are still advertising massive gains to be made in a way that suggest no risk. Your blog at least provides a balance to these claims that does not seem to be available elsewhere.; November 18, 2008 8:29 AM
Anonymous said...: To 8:37pm:

If you claim to know insurance products so well than you ought to know that Mr. Tan is an actuary by training. Do you know how difficult is the actuary exam and how long it takes to complete the series of actuary exams? I doubt you know because you asked Mr Tan to get a FA license which is like learning ABCs in the world of finance. Anyone can get a FA license. I am not trying to demean all the FAs out there but you all should know very well that getting a CFP is hard enough and that is why they came out with AFP.

Your post is a joke! All I can tell is you have an axe to grind and you are not very good at it.

PS. You should review your grammer as you had wrote "an FA license". It should be a FA License.; November 18, 2008 8:31 AM
adego said...: For those who hate WL plans so badly, I can suggest u something 'constructive'

Organize a 'petition' at Hong Lim Park and list down the wrongdoings of WL products and the person/agent who sold them to u.

gather the 'haters of WL', and lets have a party. oh yeah!

u will get no where being anoynimus by 'shouting' at the blog here

have a good time!..

Next stage is gater a list of haters, preferbly 1 million pple, and the engage lawyers... sue the parties involved... aka class action suit

must remember to songbah, all is truthful and so on, just follow the minibond models... all the best!; November 18, 2008 8:53 AM
zhummmeng said...: adego,
'impressive' info you gave .What do they tell you? Nothing , if you just harp on those numbers.
I would never be an insurance agent. They suck and and are dishonest lot.
I have given my argument on WL.
and why par plans are sucking plans.Can't you see why they are not giving decent protection and return?
My contention is if WL and par plans are not delivering as they used to be you must stop people from being suckered into it. Expose them and the agents who peddle them and offer them alternative like BTITD . The insurance companies won't collapse if they offer good term products and investment just like the general insurance companies.
Adego, do you know the companies are using YOUR MONEY from WL and par products to keep them going, by investing to cover their costs and to maintain the ceo and the high salaried senior management and what is your share from the investment. They can't do very much because they come first. They bullshit you that they will give "higher" return if you allow them gamble your bonus cut from annual bonus.The solution is cut the ceo and all staff salaries and the commission of the agents and there will be win-win-win. Now win-win-lose. The consumers lose.
If you like WL why don't you buy regular ILPs aka variable whole life plan (VWL). VWL is much better
than WL in many ways. You can mimic the traditional WL and yet give you better return.
lastly, after the minibomb episode HLP will be abuzz with condemnation of WL products and and the peddlers, the insurance agents. Come and join us and tell your view of WL.

PS. EFP requires many conditions to work; November 18, 2008 9:49 AM
Anonymous said...: adego,
well, you will be watching legal suits taken out against insurance agents very soon for all sorts of malpractices and WL will the products at the centre of the suit.
Who are the litigants? the widowers, the widows, the dependents and aggrieved policyholders themselves.
i suggest the insurance agents take out a a big professional idemnity insurance.; November 18, 2008 10:26 AM
siewkhim said...: Kin Lian,

What is bygone is bygone. OK; November 18, 2008 10:59 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear Mr Tan

YOU ARE DOING AN EXCELLENT JOB! We are in dire need of financial eduction in Singapore - something that is not provided by our eduction system - hence we are misled by equally ignorant financial advisors and Rms.

Thanks for your great work

regards
Michele; November 18, 2008 1:32 PM
adego said...: good biz opportunity to sell Professional indemnity to insurance agents! oh yeah! let's make money, but they will not buy unless the anoynimus launch the campaign, pls do it quick, huh!; November 18, 2008 1:50 PM
adego said...: zm, fyi, most agents do not have the competency to offer these figures. go test a few of them.

these are public information. go search for yourself. get yr facts right first, pls...

Question: How do u know more about the ant community, their life and how they serve their queen?

Answer: Very simple! u be the ant and be among them, u will see their life. simple?

likewise, if u want to know about life of the insurance agent, how they rip pple off (if they did), u should be one. this can be a profitable biz, becos u can write a book thereafter, and become the next best-seller, and u make millions of dollars from royalties (all the best).

remember also to be a management trainee, and work under the ceo, accountant, payroll pple, financial controller, and etc, then u know how their pay is derived, and what is expected of them and etc.

then what u speak will surely carry lots of weight, becos u have the figures and facts.

btw, pls tell us yr investment strategy for a retiree and/or a person who is retiring in 4-5 yrs

the strategy plan has to be SMRART Plan - Specific, Measurable, Realistic, Achievable & Reasonable, and with a Timeline.

bingo?!; November 18, 2008 2:03 PM
Anonymous said...: at least Mr Tan dare to tell you the merits and demerits of products. and for that i applaud him. nuff said.; November 18, 2008 3:11 PM
freeier said...: Adego is just like many other insurance agents that I have met over the years. They like to twist things and only mention things that benefit their product without mentioning the flip side of it, like they are claiming what Mr Tan shld do now.

1. An insurance company offering insurance term product would still survive because they would be able to price the product in such a way as to survive.

You are just assessing your company and thinking that one company who doesn't make tonnes of money from WL policies cannot survive! But market are full of companies dealing with just car insurance, or health insurance, etc.etc. Most of them are surviving well.

2. Warren Buffet's insurance company deal with different kinds of term insurances instead of life insurance. I don't think he owns any life insurance company.

3. Since you insist that everything else have lost money in the last 6mths, tell me how insurance company can make money in the par fund then ? Either they choose to deceive themselves by not Marking to market their losses, or they defer previous years profit to cover this year's loss and continue to declare bonus. Then what is the difference between this and an investor doing his/her own investment over 20-30 years ?! The gains in other years would easily offset the losses in this one bad year.

Now you are looking at insurance company with a long term spectacle and for individual investor you use a time stamp valuation comparison!

The industry will change. It will change into one where good advisors will be paid according to the value of their advise. The opaque form of fees and huge kickbacks from the large companies will stop as more and more ppl understand financial responsibilities.; November 18, 2008 3:37 PM
adego said...: freeier,
1) I did not offer any advise, only state my opinions. it's useless to offer any advise here.

2) I am not good at twisting facts. Pls do yr homework, the hard facts is available publicly

3) motor insurance is different from life insurance

4) MR. Buffett buy and sell investments, afterall, u may track him if u wish

5) I did not insist anything. pls check the facts yrself.

6) Yes, things will change. I agree

To conclude, I have no intent to offer any advise. Pls don't misunderstood my post as advise.

This is an interesting platform to do some discussion, and see how naive pple are, when it comes to financial matters.

the level of financial ignorance is at a pinnacle level. This CLN saga is a good wakeup call.

freeier, I suggest u to organise another event at hong lim, on WL products and the agents.

U be the leader. State the facts, like Mr. Tan did. pls do homework, and don't be a laugh of the town!
All the best! u can have my blessings!; November 18, 2008 4:56 PM
Anonymous said...: We come to this blog because we know what Mr Tan have done and how we can benefit from his knowledge.

To ZM, what are your credentials?

To anon 5.46pm
Grow up. You sound so childish from all those whinning.; November 18, 2008 8:32 PM
adego said...: it's interesting to see some post that says, 'insurance agent stinks...' becos...

well, why don't u say ceo sucks becos they... (AIG's Green/ Lehman's Fuld)

engineers cheat becos of enron

accountants scammer becos of anderson

mummy cruel, becos there is one that kill her own son

teachers perverts, becos of...

after u go thru the whole list, everybody stinks

if u are a kid, maybe yr parent did not teach u well, if u are an adult, u might be a phsyco or not grown up.

if u are a pshyco, I urge u to see a phsychaitris, get some help, it's good for u.

if u are still not grown up, u may have to learn thru the hard way; November 18, 2008 8:50 PM
Anonymous said...: Hello Mr Tan,

Don't worry about this Chua Sheng Yang guy. I think for any one of his kind attacking you, there are 10 others who think you are doing a great job!

Certainly, many of the bros in 3in1kopitiam forum are behind you. We also make sure that many of the video clips of your Hong Lim meetings are disseminated through our forum too.

Keep up the good work!

Best regards,

Kojakbt
3in1kopitiam Moderator
http://forums.delphiforums.com/3in1kopitiam; November 19, 2008 1:11 AM
freeier said...: hi anony 5.46pm,

well, its fine. they can say all they want. we know how crappy they are and how CMI they are. they need to make a living and they need to dish out craps in the market.

1. they try to play with words. posting a comment like: "Blogger adego said...

For those who hate WL plans so badly, I can suggest u something 'constructive'" and claim that they never 'insisted' on anything.

2. they try to link things that are non correlated to suit their need.
remember, we spoke about life insurance companies being ponzi scheme.
he quoted: "MR. Warren Buffett owns several insurance companies, FYI. Nobody would call him a ponzi, but worship him...(I did not, I worship God)"
then i told him that WB doesn't own any insurance company.
then he said: "4) MR. Buffett buy and sell investments, afterall, u may track him if u wish"

they go around taking quotes and telling ppl limited facts, comparing apple to orange and claim morale victory.

my profile is quite open. Many people knows who i am, or at least if they goggle my nick they will link me up with who i am in real life. I don't hide behind a nick. My nick is with me for the last 12 years and I am proud of it. if signifies my state of mind wanting to be 'free' of the social responsibility of a human!

so tell me, who has more credibility.; November 19, 2008 1:36 AM
adego said...: dear freeier,

wow! u talk with credibility!

if u think credibility is to show off more of yrself, u should create a blog and show us all yr pictures, and videos of yr daily life.

if u do not have the ability to gather more facts and discuss, then let's not continue from here. we don't need more hot air from u. there's too much here.

fyi, Buffett really owned insurance companies, u can find out from books that talked about him. since u do not have the depth to take any meaningful facts and accomodate differed opinions, pls free yrself from discussion.

if u really have a case against WL, u should act on it, just like how the CLN destroy pple's life, u organise a petition against it. like Mr. Tan has done. isn't that constructive? I really hope to see a new leader emerge from here, & not NATO; November 19, 2008 10:48 AM
Anonymous said...: adego,
yes they all stink.Have you heard of these in the past. They were respectable, trustworthy. Where have they left their conscience? in the sewage? Maybe you have thrown away yours too or flushed away into the toilet bowl.I think you are confused, demented. Take more tonic or pig's brain.; November 19, 2008 11:15 AM

Monday, November 17, 2008

My blog and its target audience

31 comments:

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