Tan Kin Lian's Blog: Land banking story on CNA

Wednesday, April 21, 2010

Land banking story on CNA - 18 April

The land banking story was aired on 18 April. I was not able to watch it (as I was interviewed at the same time on another programme). Can those who watched it shared your views?

20 comments:

Anonymous said...: I find that you are moderate in the prgramme. sometimes, moderation is required for substainability,but the message intended may not be sharp enough.; April 21, 2010 9:56 PM
Anonymous said...: I watched out of curiosoty but, it was all about in favour of being "Regulated" if I'm not wrong.

The Director of PG presented the subject professionally but I strongly feel that LandBanking in UK should comes under
Key term check:

GreenBelts - countryside area around an urban area which are protected from development to restrict urban sprawl

Brownfield Site - an area of land previously build on where developments have been demolished and new building can take place

Greenfield Site - an area of countryside never built on before

In short, many UK Landbankers are banking on the hope of marketing lands in the Greenbelts that runs contrary to Govt. approval and waiting for some miracle to happen or can happen that no one knows??

Always exercise Due Dilifence; April 21, 2010 9:56 PM
LetsTalkSomeSenseHere said...: Hi Mr. Tan,

To my understanding, MAS only regulates financial (aka paper) products. This is to protect consumers from complicated structured and derivative products that the commonfolk may find hard to understand.

For the land bankers that really do provide a legitimate Title Deed for the land that the investors own, isn't it considered a REAL ESTATE investment?

I believe that it's not under MAS's jurisdiction to regulate real estate products right?

I am always open to all different types of investments - from those offered by banks, financial advisories, to land, gold, wine and even ATMs.

However, it is very unfair to pass sweeping statements like to 'avoid ALL land banking products at ALL COSTS'

This is causing many of your followers out there to miss out on good opportunities in the market.

Rather, as many of your readers have posted, the PREFERRED thing to do is to ask your readers to DO THEIR OWN DILIGENCE.

There are a few land banking companies in Singapore. Yes, they are not regulated, but hey, there's always the MAS Investor Alert List!
Check out who is on the list and who are not.
http://www.moneysense.gov.sg/check_our_list/Consumer_Portal_IAL.html#t

In all investments, there are those that claim big returns and those that back it up by proper TRACK RECORD.

To all investors out there, even when you decide on which bank or financial product to invest in, I'm very sure the track record plays a big part in your decision making, right?

As mentioned earlier, I'm very open to such 'alternative' investments and hence have been researching on Land Banking for a while.

THIS is what I mean by AUDITED TRACK RECORD
http://www.waltoninternational.com/Download-document/234-PwC-Audit-March-17-2009

I'm going to invest with them but I'm not saying that you should as well.

What I want to share is my 2 cents worth.. that there are ALWAYS black sheep in ANY industry.
But if you let these black sheep cloud your investment judgement, you will never find your diamond in the rough.

Thank you. :); April 21, 2010 11:32 PM
Tan Kin Lian said...: Reply to 11:32 PM

The people who got conned in the land banking scams told me that they did their diligence before they invested in the products. And still they got scammed.

I do not know if there are any honest land banking products. It is easier to design a scam rather than an honest product.

Good luck to those people who think that they can do their due diligence. Are they as smart as the scammers?; April 21, 2010 11:46 PM
LetsTalkSomeSenseHere said...: Oh no Mr. Tan, I'm sorry but your reply really worries me.

Are you saying that we should avoid Investment Banks totally just because Goldman Sachs is under investigation now?

It's easier to say "I did my due diligence" than to "design a scam".

You see, when my kid fails his exam, he always tells me "I studied hard for my exam!"

Are you suggesting that I tell my boy to avoid exams totally? Or ask him to take only subjects that he can pass?

I think the right way is to TEACH him HOW to study, isn't it?

Back to this topic, shouldn't the right way be to TEACH your readers HOW to discern good investments, rather than just to AVOID at ALL COSTS?

Track record, as mentioned in my post above, is just one of the many factors to determine a good investment.

The Green Belt, Brownfield and Greenfield Sites by Anonymous is also a good sharing on how to determine good land investments.

Among many factors include the relationship of the land banking company with the local governments there, I believe.

I really appeal to all to share with the rest how to differentiate a good land investment from a bad one.

I think everyone will benefit greatly.

"Give a man a fish, and he will not be hungry for a moment. Teach a man how to fish, and he will not be hungry for a lifetime."

I say
"Tell a man to avoid all fish because of a rotten one, and he will never taste the delicacies of sashimi. Teach a man how to choose a good fish, and he will be a very happy and contented man" :); April 22, 2010 12:20 AM
Anonymous said...: I realised, DONT invest in real estate if you have not visted the property and further it is not regulated! ( that is blind investment); April 22, 2010 12:34 AM
Tan Kin Lian said...: Reply to 12:20 am

It is clear to me that you are engaged in the business of selling land banking plots.

Normally, I would have stopped your kinds of comments to suggest that other people do not "talk sense" or that their views "worry you". I normally bar comments who disparage other people's views or pass judgement on their views, especially as your identity is hidden.

The land banking plots, whether green belts or agriculatural lands, are usually sold at 10 to 30time of their real value, under the unjustified hope that it could appreciate 2 to 3 times when approval is given for its development.

The experts said that the chance of getting approval is less than 1%. It is better to bet on roulette in a casino.

Lately, these land banking operators promise to buy back the land at the price plus 12% after 6 months. They reneged on their buy back option. Many investors could not get back their money.

And the land banking operators continue to sell more of these "empty promises" to other investors.

I am not aware of actual examples of investors who have bought into these land banking plots and made the 2 to 3 times gain that came when the approval was given. Some early investors made the gain, but it was a ponzi scheme.; April 22, 2010 7:07 AM
Anonymous said...: ApplyYourSomeCommonSense

Stop! Research and Think before you act!; April 22, 2010 8:01 AM
Anonymous said...: An ordinary investor got cheated and complained to the authority.

But the cheats, being smarter than the victim (don’t forget that their profession is to con), manage to create an impression that the victim is irresponsible, greedy, stupid and has unrealistic expectations (such as expect high returns and no risk ….).

The results are that the poor investor not only got cheated but also got humiliated.; April 22, 2010 8:14 AM
Anonymous said...: 8:14am,

Are you referring to Landbanking victims?

Sounds familiar. I, a Minibond victim, felt the same way.

In Sept 2008 after LB collapsed, all the Ms said we took high risk for high return and MAS said we must take responsibility when signing on the dotted lines.

Then radios and newspapers ridicule us for being a poor losers.

As days passed, with more information and protests from Hong Kong, the public opinion softened. Meeting in HL park and organizing ourselves with TKL help proved a blessing.

FIDREC adjudication process started in March 09 and were skewed in favour of FIs. FIs took a stubborn stand of compensating little to a few i.e. snorbish with bias in-house investigation.

As the 2009 progresses, HK MB investors had a breakthrough and compensated 60-70%. Then in late 2009, MAS released a compensation matrix averaging >60% compensation cum liquidation. This was after MAS released it's July 09 investigation report with the conclusion of punishing FIs and banks "very severely" which tarnished their reputation i.e. ban from selling a already dead structure products from 1/2 to 2 years.

While the big bulk of MB investors have no choice but to move on, those victims of Jubilee, Pinnacle and DBS High Notes continue to work through their lawsuit. The only ones we know is progressing are Minibond [Miag] and HN5 group.

So what's MAS/Govt message?

You are your own responsibiltiy but when come to Ministers' pay raise, we will TELL you about it i.e. TELL you means: You listen, We increase and no amount of complains will help because they are DEAF FROGS. PAP think it is Right eventhough it is Unpopular.

Please vote for them in the coming election and support them to increase their salary from $3.5 million to $7 million as double means double happiness....Even though the millions of voters are unhappy but at least there 23 ministers laughing all the way to their banks. Paying them this amount is worth it as they are our Forward-looking and Kind Ministers whose views are very farsighted even though deaf most of the time.; April 22, 2010 9:21 AM
Anonymous said...: In Singapore , we have a variety of countries to invest or engage in landbanking typically :
Canada, Great Britain-UK , Australia, NZ ,USA, Philippines, Malaysia etc....

It is high risk and high returns kind of investments that only reputable companies can deliver.
My priority is Canada and 2nd. is USA, as I have dropped the rest citing Risk appetite.
The Canadian Govt. is proactive and
because of her rich natural resources, Canada has the wealth for developments simply as that!

The statement to "AVOID all LandBanking Invesments as scams"
is rather unjustified!
Now where did Li Ka Shing invest?
Canada off course! and surely his investments in Canadian lands paid off handsomely.

BTW, friends that I talked to, have seen their land exits from Canada ROI better than Equities, Unit Trusts, FDs, other than physical property investments in Singapore.; April 22, 2010 9:59 AM
Tan Kin Lian said...: Reply to 9:59 AM

Li Ka Shing invest with his own money. He knows what is the value of the land that he is paying for.

The retail public buys land banking plots from promoters at 20 to 30 times of hte value of the land.

This is the difference!

You can set up your own blog to tell people to invest in land banking. But in my blog, I will tell people to AVOID LAND BANKING AT ALL COST.; April 22, 2010 10:05 AM
Anonymous said...: Don't fall for these kind of schemes. Just avoid them at all cost whatever some detractors are trying to make you believe otherwise.; April 22, 2010 10:19 AM
Anonymous said...: I think MLM and similar sellers need to change the way they sell. Their reasoning sounds all too familiar.

When you raise a factual objection to what you think is a bad product, they will always draw a parallel to some other thing which sound logical at first, but thinking deeper doesn't hold water.

For example when I questioned a Lampe Berger rep on the high startup cost, he says a McD start up costs even more.

So when you talk to a land banking rep about the risk, he will tell you Lehman brothers also fail.

Then they tell you since your son fail the exam, does it mean you tell him don't study...?

The gold coin reps, the land banking reps, the MLM reps, the vacation club reps, the water filling station reps, the bird nest investment reps..all use the same method to handle your objections. After a while you get to recognize the patterns.; April 22, 2010 10:35 AM
Anonymous said...: If those land they promote was so damn attractive and valuable, do you think they want to come half way around the globe to promote it in Singapore? They can do it in London and the land will be snapped up with a blink of an eye, like those hot properties in Singapore.

The distance between the land and investors is the perfect cover for scam. How many investors actually visit the site? Although I tried to do my due diligence in HN5, my RM conned me with her summary of the product.; April 22, 2010 3:55 PM
Anonymous said...: Yes, avoid all landbanking investments. Those who passed pro landbank schemes are the ones who are promoting them. TKL is doing the right thing to suddenly pass over such comments in this blog.
Why should he allow his own blog to be used as an advertising venue for such vultures who are out to con people.; April 22, 2010 4:02 PM
Anonymous said...: I took 1.5 years to get back >65% of my principle back from my MB3A.

Numerous Hong Lim Park meetings
Numerous MIAG meeting
Meeting and humiliated by FIs
Talked to MAS on many occasions
Numerous meeting with victims to share and learn.
Numerous meeting with FIDREC
One final meeting at Adjudication.

For those who did not go through, I advise? It is not worth it. If you really cannot get your landbanking investment back, no one can or will help especially the authority.

For those who have gone through, learn from it, do get con again. Also do not trust MAS/Govt.

So, don't be a hero and suffered all over again. Invest in what you understand and not what you do not understand.; April 22, 2010 4:52 PM
Steve said...: Dıd profıtable group dırector explaın why they are not payıng ınvestors ?; April 22, 2010 5:22 PM
Anonymous said...: Hear! Hear! Mr Tan!.. well said!
You have my support on this!; April 22, 2010 6:20 PM
Anonymous said...: if a school is taking 30000 student for a course, knowing full well that the market demad for people with these skill is most probably only 1000 or less after these people finish the course, but market the course like there is great demand in the market for it, will you ask your son to even take this kind of course and study for the exam, no matter what is the passing rate for the exam...; April 22, 2010 10:59 PM

Wednesday, April 21, 2010

Land banking story on CNA - 18 April

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